Bug TPA Flipper Bug Confirmed

superballs · Aug 4, 2012

Hi everyone,

Hello especially Mike Rietmeyer.

You requested that someone capture the ball through the flipper bug and I have screen caps and a video of it happening. I'm currently rendering the video to upload to YouTube but in the meantime have a frame by frame capture of it happening

Screen 1:

TPA Flipper bug frame 1 by Double///A\\\Ron, on Flickr

Screen 2:

TPA Flipper Bug Frame 2 by Double///A\\\Ron, on Flickr

It almost seems that while in transition from flipper down to flipper up, there's a moment when the flipper stops being a solid object.

This was captured at 30 fps (wish i would have been using 720p/60fps for this)

Now to get the vid up on youtube

Thank you,

Sean DonCarlos · Aug 4, 2012

If those two screenshots are truly one frame apart, then the ball never went through the flipper - the flipper was simply never in contact with the ball, being below it one frame and above it the next. But needless to say, that's not something that could happen with a physical flipper, unless you've discovered a new quantum tunneling phenomenon.

Dutch Pinball ball · Aug 4, 2012

We need s frame weer the ball goes through the flipper.

superballs · Aug 4, 2012

Here's the video on youtube.

I have limits to my capturing capabilities so we will have to make due with what we have really.

superballs · Aug 4, 2012

Serenseven said:
If those two screenshots are truly one frame apart, then the ball never went through the flipper - the flipper was simply never in contact with the ball, being below it one frame and above it the next. But needless to say, that's not something that could happen with a physical flipper, unless you've discovered a new quantum tunneling phenomenon.

Not one frame in the game, if it's running at 60fps, but one frame of capture (using a DSLR)

gjarnling · Aug 5, 2012

this has happened to me on most tables after the update. the simplest way to see it for yourself is to start mb on CFTBL, cradle one ball with the left flipper and constantly shot the left ramp from the right flipper by cradling the ball when it comes from the cup. it happens quite frequently.

superballs · Aug 5, 2012

It's not a new bug, it happens in BH, ToM, I'm sure it happens on all tables...I think it's an issue with the engine itself not a particular table.

I also think that if they implemented more realistic flipper mechanics, it might even solve the issue, it's almost as if during one point of the upswing, it becomes non-solid.

I just think that despite being frequently reported, it's hard to guess when it will happen...i actually had to sit there and try and generate the situation where it happens as my playstyle, once i know a table well, usually prevents me from needing to use a slap save.

Matt McIrvin · Aug 5, 2012

superballs said:
I also think that if they implemented more realistic flipper mechanics, it might even solve the issue, it's almost as if during one point of the upswing, it becomes non-solid.

We already know that fast-moving balls can occasionally pass through solid walls and "fall off the table", maybe because the ball is moving fast enough that it passes entirely through some zone in which the engine is checking for wall collisions in between two simulated moments of time. This happens frequently enough that everyone has seen it, and the game makes special allowances for it, or tries to (it puts a new ball in the flipper lane).

Passing through a flipper is less common (I've had it unambiguously happen to me once, on Black Hole), but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same mechanism.

Crush3d_Turtle · Aug 5, 2012

I see this happen from time to time, but always just pass it off as me missing the ball even though I am nearly sure that I saw it go through the flipper. Thanks for getting this on video and hopefully it will be solved soon.

superballs · Aug 5, 2012

It's one of those things that I've ultimately forgiven simply because it so rarely really happens at a crucial moment. I think what tipped me over the edge today was that I was having a really strong game, was really close to battle for the kingdom for my first time and had it happen after just breaking 100mil (yeah i suck lol but i just got this table the other day). I've had it destroy games of ToM too.

While it's not the end of the world for me, I just want to give Farsight the chance to properly assess why it's happening and where and help improve the overall polish of the product.

SKILL_SHOT · Aug 5, 2012

You hit the ball hundreds of times and theres always that 1 that makes you WTF!? Did that just go through my flipper? You wouldn't question a REAL table, but after seeing the ball pass through alot of things the table, ramps, RUDY its easily conceivable this is just another example.

Mike Reitmeyer · Aug 5, 2012

Thanks for posting a video, I'll look into it when I'm back in the office.

Richard B · Aug 5, 2012

I've had this happen to me as well. The most common place is after losing a ball on the lower playfield in Black Hole. Rapidly hitting the right flipper sometimes puts the ball back in play. The slap save he filmed is also a common one for me. Of course, real tables also do unexpected things. In addition to the apron drain I experienced on Stirker Xtreme, I was playing Pin*Bot the other day, and one of the balls got airborne and flew right over the flipper! Even stranger is, by some miracle, it didn't drain!

superballs · Aug 5, 2012

Thank you Mike,

Always appreciate it

Sean DonCarlos · Aug 6, 2012

So after months of playing on the 360, I finally had the ball go through a flipper. Unfortunately I don't have video, so narration will have to do:

On Theatre of Magic, a single ball is rocketing toward the drain slightly left of center. I flip with the left flipper and the ball nicks the tip of the flipper and heads toward the middle of the right flipper at extremely high speed. The ball goes right through it and ends up underneath the base of the right flipper (way too far to the right to be explainable by normal physics). The right flipper was at rest the entire time.

The video above shows the ball phasing through a moving flipper, but it is apparently also possible for a ball to tunnel through a flipper that is not moving.

Matt McIrvin · Aug 6, 2012

Richard B said:
In addition to the apron drain I experienced on Stirker Xtreme, I was playing Pin*Bot the other day, and one of the balls got airborne and flew right over the flipper! Even stranger is, by some miracle, it didn't drain!

Hmm... I wonder if some of the apparent ball-through-flipper glitches in TPA are really balls flying over the flipper? Probably not the majority of them, but still...

The thing that always surprises me on some real tables is when the ball does a fast center drain and makes an incredibly loud CRACK from hitting a low wireform somewhere under the flippers. It sounds almost like the replay knocker, but it ain't...

Aurel · Aug 6, 2012

Playing CV today I have seen the ball pass throught the right side of the playfield and go out of the screen. Surprising, the ball has come back in the table from nowhere approx 1 or 2 seconds later

BonzoGonzo · Aug 6, 2012

Matt McIrvin said:
Hmm... I wonder if some of the apparent ball-through-flipper glitches in TPA are really balls flying over the flipper? Probably not the majority of them, but still...

when the ball also goes through a solid object like a scoop, rudys head and from playfiled to rail, you kinda know its not 'jumping'

Carl Spiby · Aug 6, 2012

Presumably there's a sampling rate in the physics engine, if the ball motion somehow exceeds the speed of that, it could pass through a solid object before the engine has acknowledged the collision.

laughing_lunatic · Aug 6, 2012

I'm beginning to wonder if my "WTF" moments are this same bug... very few and far between and unfortunately I can't remember which tables, although ToTAN, ToM and TM:BoP are my most played tables right now.

Bug TPA Flipper Bug Confirmed

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