Farsight comes clean on issues with 360 platform

Mark W**a · Oct 8, 2012

From Facebook:

There are unfortunately some unique challenges with the Xbox 360 platform. First, Microsoft is the only 1st party who charges for each game patch (even if the purpose of the patch is to add additional DLC that will make money for them). That means we have no choice but to wait and submit several table packs in the same patch. Second, Microsoft refuses to have a direct relationship with XBLA developers- they insist that we go through a publisher. This makes it more difficult for us to make money on 360, but also makes it harder to have a dialog with Microsoft about anything. We understand your frustration, and we are even more frustrated than you are. We've made a large investment in licenses and development so when we can't make money on a platform by selling tables it hurts us a lot more than it hurts our customers. The 360 is one of our favorite platforms to play pinball on- it's a shame things have to be so complicated!

This is already knowledge to some of you, but it's new to me and I think sheds some light on the situation for everyone.

With this new knowledge, I am now very patient with the DLC going forward. Delays are much better than no DLC at all! If this is how it's going to be, then they should just wait till they can release packs 4,5,6, 7 and Twilight Zone and the November patch all together in one update, even if that means no DLC till late December.

grashopper · Oct 8, 2012

I wonder if there is any way they can make it so they don't have to patch for DLC. Something like Rock Band where the new content just plugs into the game. It's a shame that there might be a wait until 4 packs or so come out before they can release them each time.
Hoping they can figure something out.

Mark W**a · Oct 8, 2012

grashopper said:
I wonder if there is any way they can make it so they don't have to patch for DLC. Something like Rock Band where the new content just plugs into the game. It's a shame that there might be a wait until 4 packs or so come out before they can release them each time.
Hoping they can figure something out.

Zen2/FX2 does this. I'm not a developer so I don't understand how it works. But they are able to add new tables all the time without title updates.

xNiCeGuYx · Oct 8, 2012

They should relaunch TPA, it will be better in a long run.

Mark W**a · Oct 8, 2012

xNiCeGuYx said:
They should relaunch TPA, this will be better in a long run.

Now like I said, I am not a developer, but I'll bet that this was why Pinball FX2 came out in the first place. FX2 is a free download, and allows you to import your FX1 tables right into it for free, and FX2 allows for frequent DLC with no title updates. How much you wanna bet that Zen Studios had the same problem with FX1 that Farsight is now having with PBA?

grashopper · Oct 8, 2012

Yeah I was thinking that about Zen 2 but wasn't sure if it worked that way yet. As far as I know they hadn't released any since it came out. Would be great if they could update the game to a similar layout and DLC system.

Mark W**a · Oct 8, 2012

Copying the Zen/FX model, and releasing a Pinball Arcade "2" that allows us to import our current tables, plus seemless DLC updates of new tables w/o need for costly title updates, this would cost them upfront: New submission, technically a new "game". But in the long run it would save hundreds of thousands in title updates, not to mention a pleased fanbase that gets the DLC on time.

The alternative is years of costly title updates, hurting the profitability of the platform or worse, losing the platform altogether. I wish I was a developer so I could help them sort it out lol.

Sean DonCarlos · Oct 8, 2012

Mark Wyda said:
Zen2/FX2 does this. I'm not a developer so I don't understand how it works. But they are able to add new tables all the time without title updates.

DISCLAIMER: Despite my increasing knowledge of how TPA works internally, I am not one of their developers.

Zen2/FX2 is not trying to accurately emulate physical devices. Therefore they likely do not need new code for each new table, as they do not have to fool a ROM into thinking it is interacting with a physical table. All Zen2/FX2 has to worry about is marking what sound and animation resources to play when the ball interacts with certain features of their tables.

Example: It's not like Theatre of Magic, where making the trunk rotate involves delicately handling a group of switches (there are about 15 of them on the real table) in precise sequence and timing so as to keep the ROM happy. If for some reason an FX2 table needs to rotate a trunk, it would simply have an animation resource and a sound resource stored with the table data. If it wanted to make the trunk explode instead, all it would need is a different animation and sound. But the code is always the same: on event A, play animation resource X and sound resource Y and increase score by Z and illuminate insert W. Just the values of X, Y, Z and W change. Every "physical" event on an FX2 table could theoretically be handled with the same code, regardless of whether it's a trunk or a kickout or an animated superhero. So as long as Zen planned it out carefully during initial development, this code can be included in the base game and doesn't need updating for new tables.

Now TPA has these resources too - that's what controls the visible trunk rotation and the whirring sound effect on ToM - but it also has to emulate the input/output for the ROM. This input/output is different for every table - even the basic format of it can be different: System 11 is not the same as WPC95 is not the same as S.A.M. - and therefore requires new code for every table. It's not just pure data like an FX2 table. That's why FarSight can't just do DLC as FX2 or Rock Band does.

The only way that FarSight could have done it the Zen way is if they had done the development/emulation work for the ROM of every single table they would ever want to include in TPA and included all necessary code in the base game, and had done this all before selling a single table. You do not need to be a developer to know that no company would commit resources on that scale on what is essentially a niche product, especially when a large fraction of the tables face potential licensing difficulties and may never happen, etc.

Mark W**a · Oct 8, 2012

Serenseven said:
DISCLAIMER: Despite my increasing knowledge of how TPA works internally, I am not one of their developers.

The only way that FarSight could have done it the Zen way is if they had done the development/emulation work for the ROM of every single table they would ever want to include in TPA and included all necessary code in the base game, and had done this all before selling a single table. You do not need to be a developer to know that no company would commit resources on that scale on what is essentially a niche product, especially when a large fraction of the tables face potential licensing difficulties and may never happen, etc.

I'm not saying you're wrong. However, I am not so sure this is accurate. Do you have sources to back this up? Has Farsight ever mentioned this?

Are you familiar with GameRoom on 360? It's dead now, and has been for some time, but the game emulates everything from Atari 2600 to Konami 16-bit hardware and countless other hardware in between... they had around 10 DLC packs before the game went belly up, and zero title updates. The later DLC packs included new Konami hardware emulation, games like Twin Bee and Sunset Riders, which ran on much more advanced hardware than the previous 8-bit stuff. They even had Vector-based 3D games on there. Tons of different companies Atari, Coleco, Intellivision, Midway etc. Konami was a later addition after the service launched. Again, zero title updates.

Bonzo · Oct 8, 2012

FarSight have mentioned the need for new code for new tables on several occasions here on the forum. IIRC it's not because of the emulation but because of new code that has to be implemented for the toys, though.

Edit: Should have read S7's post more carefully. It's because the way the emulated ROM has to deal with the toys, right?

Mike Reitmeyer · Oct 8, 2012

Serenseven is correct. (I'm guessing he came to this conclusion from my previous posts). Zen has the advantage of designing the tables to work within thier framework of code, where we have to design the framework to work with the tables.

Gameroom has the advantage of all the inputs and outputs are the same for every single Atari game. So emulating it is straightforward. The special features and toys on a pinball table all behave differently.

Rockband has the advantage of just needing a music file plus timings for all the moments where you hit the correct buttons. They don't need to patch cause no executable code is necessary.

It's impossible for me to write the code for every table ahead of time. So a patch is necessary to add new tables. Even if we put the code in DLL form in the DLC, it would require lengthy approvals and submission fees for each DLC. And then instead of being able to say 3 packs with one patch, we would have to do separate certifications for each pack.

The problem is like he said with TOM. Each table has some special toys on it that don't behave the same as toys on another table, so it's really hard to program for that ahead of time without doing the table.

xNiCeGuYx · Oct 8, 2012

Maybe some day when MS appreciates TPA they will lower the costs for each submission for FS.

Mark W**a · Oct 8, 2012

Thanks for chiming in Mike. Well, that answers that. Thank you.

With that said, we now have I would say a complete picture of the situation. That pretty much ends the current discussion.

Jeff Strong · Oct 8, 2012

Serenseven said:
DISCLAIMER: Despite my increasing knowledge of how TPA works internally, I am not one of their developers.

Zen2/FX2 is not trying to accurately emulate physical devices. Therefore they likely do not need new code for each new table, as they do not have to fool a ROM into thinking it is interacting with a physical table. All Zen2/FX2 has to worry about is marking what sound and animation resources to play when the ball interacts with certain features of their tables.

Example: It's not like Theatre of Magic, where making the trunk rotate involves delicately handling a group of switches (there are about 15 of them on the real table) in precise sequence and timing so as to keep the ROM happy. If for some reason an FX2 table needs to rotate a trunk, it would simply have an animation resource and a sound resource stored with the table data. If it wanted to make the trunk explode instead, all it would need is a different animation and sound. But the code is always the same: on event A, play animation resource X and sound resource Y and increase score by Z and illuminate insert W. Just the values of X, Y, Z and W change. Every "physical" event on an FX2 table could theoretically be handled with the same code, regardless of whether it's a trunk or a kickout or an animated superhero. So as long as Zen planned it out carefully during initial development, this code can be included in the base game and doesn't need updating for new tables.

Now TPA has these resources too - that's what controls the visible trunk rotation and the whirring sound effect on ToM - but it also has to emulate the input/output for the ROM. This input/output is different for every table - even the basic format of it can be different: System 11 is not the same as WPC95 is not the same as S.A.M. - and therefore requires new code for every table. It's not just pure data like an FX2 table. That's why FarSight can't just do DLC as FX2 or Rock Band does.

The only way that FarSight could have done it the Zen way is if they had done the development/emulation work for the ROM of every single table they would ever want to include in TPA and included all necessary code in the base game, and had done this all before selling a single table. You do not need to be a developer to know that no company would commit resources on that scale on what is essentially a niche product, especially when a large fraction of the tables face potential licensing difficulties and may never happen, etc.

You are right that there is no ROM interaction with Zen's tables, but that fact would suggest that each table would require even more code than TPA because of the scripting involved for the rulesets that are unique to each table....but maybe since PFX 2 is published by MS, they can get away with adding the new code without a title update. The only other way around scripting the rulesets that I can think of would be if they were somehow able to just put a bunch of variables in an XML file or something similar, and then their engine is able to handle everything else from there. So that could be a possibility as well.

Richard B · Oct 8, 2012

Just confirms what I always suspected: MS is a bunch of bastards. I just hope they don't push FS into abandoning the platform entirely.

Mark W**a · Oct 8, 2012

Next time someone starts complaining about the DLC here or Facebook, I'm telling them straight up "Microsoft's fault" and citing this thread as proof.

You will NEVER hear me complain again over a delay, I'm now just happy as a cucumber we get DLC at all!

*Post edited for optimism lol*

Sinistar · Oct 8, 2012

Mark Wyda said:
Next time someone starts complaining about the DLC here or Facebook, I'm telling them straight up "Microsoft's fault" and citing this thread as proof.

The new question going forward is: will the 360 continue to be supported. The answer is that unless it remains profitable, no. I've done some fuzzy math using SlyDogg's numbers and taking into consideration 40k title update fee, development fee, microsoft's cut of DLC sales... the figures I come up with do not look good. Not trying to start anything but fellas, looks like we all might be becoming Wii U owners sometime in the future :/

(figures I get, with admittedly limited information, is still profit, but not the kinds of profits they SHOULD be making, and it's thin margins. ****ing sucks! I hate MS. Still small profit is better than no profit... even if we gotta wait 5 months and get 6 packs released together to make profit is better than dropping the platform. You will NEVER hear me complain again over a delay, I'm now just happy as a cucumber we get DLC at all!)

Why would you put any faith in Nintendo? For all the issues with Microsoft, Nintendo is the role model for MS in how they treat third party license developers like Far Sight , they killed one game "the Binding of Isaac " based on it not meeting Nintendo's politics . (wholesome family image) I ask you to imagine if F.S. decided to do Centaur or even PlayBoy 30th anniversary , how likely a mature table has of being approved ? (Centaur's backglass , Playboy's theme) Hate to be a downer , but the house of Mario is a whole other nest of headaches for them.

@ Serenseven well done explaining why Zen is simpler game code than Pinball Arcade is , and why I referred to it as a cookie cutter table designs.

Mark W**a · Oct 8, 2012

Sinistar said:
Why would you put any faith in Nintendo? For all the issues with Microsoft, Nintendo is the role model for MS in how they treat third party license developers like Far Sight , they killed one game "the Binding of Isaac " based on it not meeting Nintendo's politics . (wholesome family image) I ask you to imagine if F.S. decided to do Centaur or even PlayBoy 30th anniversary , how likely a mature table has of being approved ? (Centaur's backglass , Playboy's theme) Hate to be a downer , but the house of Mario is a whole other nest of headaches for them.

@ Serenseven well done explaining why Zen is simpler game code than Pinball Arcade is , and why I referred to it as a cookie cutter table designs.

Well replace Wii U with PC + Graphics card then.

I edited the post anyway cause I didn't feel like starting a whole gloomy discussion about them dropping Xbox. As of right now it's not the case, so I'm trying to be optimistic.

Also in defense of Nintendo, they are clearly changing their tune on this policy with Wii U. Ninja Gaiden 3, Mass Effect 3, Batman, and Assassins Creed 3 are launch titles. Now I don't want a Wii U, but if it came to shelling out 350 bucks for a new console versus 500 or more to buy a new PC, that's where I'm going. It's as simple as that.

xAzatothx · Oct 8, 2012

great to get some comms on this issue. Shame MS are not willing to open dialog with FR on this issue. Certainly seems PA is an exception to the rule for DLC.

Guess this just means tables need to be more thoroughly tested, we become more patient and FR gives us some nice fixes, features and tables to keep us sweet. Would hate to see this game disappear from the Xbox

mark21667 · Oct 8, 2012

Mark Wyda said:
Now like I said, I am not a developer, but I'll bet that this was why Pinball FX2 came out in the first place. FX2 is a free download, and allows you to import your FX1 tables right into it for free, and FX2 allows for frequent DLC with no title updates. How much you wanna bet that Zen Studios had the same problem with FX1 that Farsight is now having with PBA?

Not that I recall and any slight gameplay problems got sorted fast.

Farsight comes clean on issues with 360 platform

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