TZ: Too easy = fail

The difficulty of this table is part of what gives it its reputation. That's a big reason why it's so loved by enthusiasts, and ignored by "average" players. However, with many on hear posting scores that are 10X or more their best IRL scores, as well as multiple trips to Lost in the Zone in a single game. In fact, the amount of differences are so vast that the TPA table requires a different strategy than the real one does. While that may boost the self esteem of a six-year old who can reach the Wizard Mode on a table his father told him was one of the most difficult he ever played, it doesn't bode well for the tables biggest fans - enthusiasts expecting an accurate reproduction.

Use the operator's menu to change the difficulty however you want it?

Brandon Debes said:

Use the operator's menu to change the difficulty however you want it?

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Nope, it's the physics. Not the rule set. TZ in TPA is a kitten compared to the real one

Brandon Debes said:

Use the operator's menu to change the difficulty however you want it?

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Even on Extra Hard settings, all that really changes is that the piano and slot machine start unlit each ball and that the first two multiballs become harder to activate. But anyone who can make the left ramp - right ramp - piano combo repeatedly will be unfazed by this, as shooting both ramps lights both piano and slot machine and spells GUM-BALL to light a lock.

I know most gamers appreciate a setting for levels of difficulty. In many FPS games the offline modes will have three or four levels of difficulty. No one wants to slice through a game like butter and no one wants to have to try a level 20 times before they succeed.

I think for pinball a two tiered difficulty setting would be fine for TPA. Although it would be nice to include this with the basic game, I wouldn't mind if it was tied in with the pro table add ons. I think separate leader boards and high scores would make sense but I would let them be available for all to see. If they made this adjustment to the leader boards it might be a good time to make leader boards that can be filtered by device also. I guess they could make difficulty setting a second filter for that matter. That way when looking at the leader boards for a particular table you could first filter by device or not and then filter by difficulty level or not. Make it so!

Richard B said:

The difficulty of this table is part of what gives it its reputation. That's a big reason why it's so loved by enthusiasts, and ignored by "average" players.

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It may be frustrating for thoses that are a lot better than the average player. But the average and even more so the - god forbid - casual players are those FS get their money from. So it's really no surprise TPA tries to boost their (*cough* my *cough*) egos. Let's hope for some kind of expert physics mode as Sean DonCarlos suggested in another thread, so that everybody can be happy.

Edit: brakel, I agree 100%.

Yes, TZ is way too easy. And what's worst, the xbox/ps3 version will be even easier.
I am disappointed!

I'm not sure I get this thread. Aren't ALL of these tables much easier than their real life counterparts? I can barely scrape together 10M on a reall MM table, and over 134M so far in TPA (both in limited play), and pretty much the same thing for all of the other tables.

It's definitely not specific to TZ imho I DO agree they need to introduce more difficult physics into the game. I'd rather pay $2 for that than the useless Pro modes!

smooverr said:

I'm not sure I get this thread. Aren't ALL of these tables much easier than their real life counterparts? I can barely scrape together 10M on a reall MM table, and over 134M so far in TPA (both in limited play), and pretty much the same thing for all of the other tables.

It's definitely not specific to TZ imho I DO agree they need to introduce more difficult physics into the game. I'd rather pay $2 for that than the useless Pro modes!

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All of the tables are considerably easier than their real-life counterparts, but Twilight Zone (and to a lesser extent Scared Stiff) are especially so. I think what's got people - myself included - slightly riled up is that the real Twilight Zone is widely regarded as a very difficult table (whereas tables like Cirqus Voltaire or Monster Bash are not) and that this sense of challenge is not present in the TPA version.

I have to say that it definitely bugs me as well, going all the way back to BOP and how easy it is to join the Billionaire's Club. I think there at least needs to be an option for a higher difficulty in terms of physics, outlanes, tilt sensitivity, etc., with separate leaderboards for both difficulties. That way everyone will be happy.

I'm going to disagree here.

Having played TZ in the past, admittedly a long time ago, the TPA version is fantastic.

If it is easier than how some operators set theirs up, fine. I feel to appeal to casual players looking for the best table in a game, which is accessible, allowing progress to grow with a little experience then fair play.

Having a table set so tough that progress is stilted, puts players off. Surely FS don't want that.

Admittedly too, I put myself into beginner/moderate bracket. So maybe it is too easy for some better players, but FS have to appeal to the masses.

In any event, will not access to the Pro menu, allow the difficulty to be tweaked through the variety of options?

We're talking mainly about physics and collision meshes, which can't be changed in the Pro menu. All we're asking for is a separate difficulty option in addition to how the tables play now. Nothing would change if you don't want it to.

Fair do's Jeff

Jeff Strong said:

I have to say that it definitely bugs me as well, going all the way back to BOP and how easy it is to join the Billionaire's Club.

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I'm playing real tables since October as I joined the pinball club here in Graz, Austria. I haven't played real ones for 20+ years. We went to a (for me fun-) tournament and I saw some of the tables I only knew from TPA for the first time in real life. I played well on tables I knew/practiced in TPA such as funhouse, creature and BoP.
To cut a long story short, BoP was easier to play in real life than it is on my iPad. I could even backhand the ramp there and was in billionaires club in my second game.
Maybe it's because of nudging

But I have to agree, all that randomness a real table has and does, with weird spins of the ball, etc. makes the real ones harder to play. Especially the two TZs here are beasts and don't like TZ that much. Maybe I'll change my opinion once if learned the table virtually. Anyway it is essential to catch the ball properly from the kickout, otherwise you're doomed on the real TZ - TPA is much easier and more forgiving. But without the ability to drop/live/post catch TPA simply has to make other things easier ;-)

http://papa.org/blog/games-of-the-week/Twilight Zone/
"Twilight Zone is already one of the HARDEST pinball machine..."
That's what it's supposed to be Farsight!

Just throwing this out, dunno if its right or wrong but do the random real life physics of a pinball machine prevent a digital reproduction physics-wise? Basically what I'm asking, is do you think that real life physics are simply too hard to mimic, thus preventing the proper difficulty being applied? Maybe Farsight doesn't have the ability to make it as difficult as it's real life counterpart? Does that make sense?

Expecting a digital table to reproduce real world physics completely is highly unrealistic... but I'm sure it will one day be possible to come close enough to create the illusion.

TPA is a very fun game with very nice physics, and that's all that really matters, but I am still hopeful that they can get even better.

As far as difficulty is concerned, Bobby King has already confirmed several times that Farsight intentionally tweaks the games to make them a lot easier than they would be to make them more accessible. This is fine, but some of us would prefer more of a challenge on some of the tables and are willing to pay for that option.

Would be nice if some devs could response to this thread.

One can make an argument that it makes sense to make the standard setting for TPA easier than the real pinball machines. Pinball machines have been designed for short play to eat as many quarters as possible. They have also been designed to let you reach some goals, like multiball, after just some practice while holding the ultimate goal of beating the table out of reach for all but the most dedicated and talented players. There are reasons for this. You want players to feel like they are making progress and having good games but you don't want many to finish. This way the player has incentive to play over and over.

You take the need for the manufacturer and arcade owner to get our quarters and it frees up FS to deliver a product that takes skill and progressive learning but most players can beat the table. This does make it desirable to have a harder original arcade setting.

Mmmbacon said:

Just throwing this out, dunno if its right or wrong but do the random real life physics of a pinball machine prevent a digital reproduction physics-wise? Basically what I'm asking, is do you think that real life physics are simply too hard to mimic, thus preventing the proper difficulty being applied? Maybe Farsight doesn't have the ability to make it as difficult as it's real life counterpart? Does that make sense?

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There are a few things that just don't come across in a virtual simulation. I've stated a few in another thread, but basically they are:

Nudging strength (how hard you can nudge the table--in a virtual simulation a nudge is the same strength every time whereas on a real machine you can nudge as soft or hard as you need to, depending on how sensitive the tilt on the machine is set!)

Flipper control: You just can't do the same kinds of flipper maneuvers on TPA as you can on a real machine, e.g., live catches, etc...

Also, I've seen a few machines that have more upper flipper control than a virtual button allows. Often a machine with an upper right flipper will have a flipper button that will flip both flippers if pushed all the way in, but will only release the solenoid on the main lower flipper if you release it fully. In other words, you can partially release the button and activate the solenoid on the upper flipper while keeping the main lower flipper up. This allows you to cradle a ball in the main lower flipper while still giving you full control of the upper flipper at the same time. I've never seen this kind of control in a virtual simulation.