Bug Flipper rubbers too "bouncy"

Shaneus

Shaneus

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Mar 26, 2012
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I've only been able to see this on iOS (no other device I have can play it) but the T2 flipper rubbers seem to have far more bounce than they should. For example, when doing a dead-pass to the opposite flipper, rather than the ball reflecting from one onto the other and rolling up a short way, 9/10 times it will bounce so far it'll almost go up the opposing flipper's in-lane. If you do a dead-pass when coming off the ball launcher, you can see this perfectly... it'll land on the right flipper, but bounce off and almost run up the right inlane with far too much velocity.

I could be wrong as it's been a VERY long time since I played a real-life T2, but it feels like dead passes should be a little more controllable than what they are... there's just no speed bled of them when the ball bounces off.
 
Jeff Strong

Jeff Strong

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Feb 19, 2012
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It really depends on the speed of the ball when you do the dead flipper pass. A real T2 machine can be pretty fast at times and it's not uncommon to see a dead flipper pass bounce like that when the ball is moving along at a good clip.

I know this video isn't T2, but check it out at the :26 mark:


With that said, if it's bouncing like that even when the ball isn't moving fast, then yeah, it could use some more tuning. I don't have TPA in front of me right now to test. I just don't want them to make it any easier :/
 
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Shaneus

Shaneus

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Mar 26, 2012
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Yeah, playing it again for a bit... I dunno. Maybe it's a lot of the other tables are too lenient perhaps? It just feels like on T2 the flippers don't have any rubber or friction to them I think. I know IRL other tables bleed a lot of the velocity off even when it's travelling fairly fast, but if you get a fast ball on this (or even if you miss some of the ramps, which slows the ball down a fair bit), dead passing almost always guarantees (depending on the angle) the ball will be driven either as far up the opposite inlane as it can, or bounce off the opposite flipper completely, up toward the playfield again (and is able to reach the kickback targets).

The table feels fine other than that, though. Pleasantly surprised overall :) This just seems to stick out for some reason.

Edit: Pretty much what this guy wrote about a PS3 update is what T2 *doesn't* feel like, IMO:
brakel said:
What I noticed is that the flippers seem to absorb more realistically when the ball hits them. When a ball traveling at an angle hits a flipper it should not bounce off at the complimentary angle like a ball hitting a rail in billiards. Because the flipper absorbs some power the angle of reflection will be less than the angle that it hit the flipper at. This is the change that I noticed in the last update on the PS3 and it seems to be across all tables. But I seem to be the only one who has noticed...making me think I might be getting crazier. :D
Click to expand...
 
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N

netizen

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Jeff Strong said:
It really depends on the speed of the ball when you do the dead flipper pass. A real T2 machine can be pretty fast at times and it's not uncommon to see a dead flipper pass bounce like that when the ball is moving along at a good clip.

I know this video isn't T2, but check it out at the :26 mark:

With that said, if it's bouncing like that even when the ball isn't moving fast, then yeah, it could use some more tuning. I don't have TPA in front of me right now to test. I just don't want them to make it any easier :/
Click to expand...

No but that is Whirlwind, and most of those skills cannot be done on the TPA version. Especially that Nerves of Steel because the centre post will only bounce balls that come straight down the centre. And will let side slip any on the edge. That video shows this should not/won't happen. Then there is the issue with the flippers not having any give so live catch attempts usually fire the ball away rather than absorbing the energy of incoming ball at the moment of the flipper coming up, because there is no flex to the flipper.

T2 is like the TOM bounciness and flipper physics which is a step back after the last 2-3 packs performance improvements.
 
SKILL_SHOT

SKILL_SHOT

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Jul 11, 2012
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it is too bouncy. I read an interesting thread on pinside about the difference in rubber used originally to what we get today and how BLACK rubber differs from colord and white rubber. FS should install BLACK rubber to tune the machine then change the color not use colord rubber to tune.
 
N

netizen

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SKILL_SHOT said:
it is too bouncy. I read an interesting thread on pinside about the difference in rubber used originally to what we get today and how BLACK rubber differs from colord and white rubber. FS should install BLACK rubber to tune the machine then change the color not use colord rubber to tune.
Click to expand...

Yup, from the stuff I have read and heard during streams about specific rubber selections is that black rubbers have little to no bounce and loads of grip. Totally not the way they (re)act in TPA.

The red/coloured rubbers are the bounciest given the Durometer ratings on parts supply stores.

Black has a rating of 60 and Red has a rating of 45
 
SKILL_SHOT

SKILL_SHOT

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Jul 11, 2012
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I have a feeling what FS uses is the CHEAP RUBBER KIT wich has white rubber and colors for the flippers, tuning this GUM undoubtedly results in the OVER BOUNCYNESS we see in TPA..an option for BLACK RUBBBER might be the only way to go NOW but 4 future SHOPS BLACK rubber is a MUST!
 
superballs

superballs

Active member
Apr 12, 2012
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Jeff Strong said:
It really depends on the speed of the ball when you do the dead flipper pass. A real T2 machine can be pretty fast at times and it's not uncommon to see a dead flipper pass bounce like that when the ball is moving along at a good clip.

I know this video isn't T2, but check it out at the :26 mark:


With that said, if it's bouncing like that even when the ball isn't moving fast, then yeah, it could use some more tuning. I don't have TPA in front of me right now to test. I just don't want them to make it any easier :/
Click to expand...

I have to agree with the rest here about the bounciness, especially compared with the papa table and mostly when the ball has a lot of speed it seems to be a bit more off but OK when its not going so fast.

While most seem to say the ball is too light. I actually think the opposite. Maybe the ball mass needs to be scaled down a bit so that it doesn't resist changes in momentum so much. It would be an interesting experiment...that and it was one of the key elements in helping future pinball's floaty physics...along with a boost in slope and gravity
 
Shaneus

Shaneus

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Mar 26, 2012
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superballs said:
I have to agree with the rest here about the bounciness, especially compared with the papa table and mostly when the ball has a lot of speed it seems to be a bit more off but OK when its not going so fast.

While most seem to say the ball is too light. I actually think the opposite. Maybe the ball mass needs to be scaled down a bit so that it doesn't resist changes in momentum so much. It would be an interesting experiment...that and it was one of the key elements in helping future pinball's floaty physics...along with a boost in slope and gravity
Click to expand...
Less mass, bit more angle, change in rubber?

I'm relieved most agree with the rubber in the flippers thing. I suppose there's every chance they could use the same flippers for each table (with the same manufacturers, unless they're interchangeable... I dunno). But I noticed when playing an AC/DC where one of the flipper's rubbers was off completely (I blame Stern cheapness) that it felt closer to TPA than TPA does to regular tables.

So yeah, a fix across the board would be great.
 
Jeff Strong

Jeff Strong

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Feb 19, 2012
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I played the real T2 pin again the other day, and on that particular machine if you try to do a dead flipper pass from an orbit shot, the ball will bounce off the flipper so hard that it will actually hit the bottom of the other sling and then bounce back onto the opposite sling and out of control. This also happened to me while playing a real MM and other pins as well. So the dead flipper passes in TPA can actually be quite tame in comparison.
 
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Shaneus

Shaneus

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Hm, thanks for that input JS. I suspect the most recent patch/update for iOS has kinda fixed it (this was a week or two ago) but it still feels a little off (but admittedly, better than before). I don't think it'll be until we play it on a platform with more advanced physics (like PS3 or PC) that we'll know for sure if it feels right or not.
 
superballs

superballs

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Apr 12, 2012
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Jeff Strong said:
I played the real T2 pin again the other day, and on that particular machine if you try to do a dead flipper pass from an orbit shot, the ball will bounce off the flipper so hard that it will actually hit the bottom of the other sling and then bounce back onto the opposite sling and out of control. This also happened to me while playing a real MM and other pins as well. So the dead flipper passes in TPA can actually be quite tame in comparison.
Click to expand...

I agree with you here. I like the bounciness of the rubber. I jist think the ball is too heavy so it holds its momentum too long and doesn't "die" correctly.
 
Shaneus

Shaneus

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Mar 26, 2012
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superballs said:
I agree with you here. I like the bounciness of the rubber. I jist think the ball is too heavy so it holds its momentum too long and doesn't "die" correctly.
Click to expand...
That seems like it could be more likely. So perhaps not the rubber, but the gravity or ball weight.
 
smbhax

smbhax

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Apr 24, 2012
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This is not a bug. The table is set up with red flipper rubbers, which are the bouncy kind. This is a totally normal configuration choice, usually picked to make a table more challenging, since the bounciness makes ball control more difficult. You can hear the PAPA guys discussing flipper rubber choice for machine difficulty adjustments in tournament videos sometimes.
 

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