EM Section

dave950lam · Sep 22, 2014

Obviousely, there is a demand for EM tables but perhaps the gameplay doesn't translate to TPA using current emulation tech.

Could Farsight maybe make a sub-game for EM's? Like Pinball after Dark?

DokkenRokken · Sep 22, 2014

dave950lam said:
Obviousely, there is a demand for EM tables but perhaps the gameplay doesn't translate to TPA using current emulation tech.

Could Farsight maybe make a sub-game for EM's? Like Pinball after Dark?

Sure they could, but they still wouldn't sell enough to warrant it's own sub game. lol

The gameplay of EMs, at least to me, is actually fine. The issue is that the general pinball fan just doesn't like EMs.

vikingerik · Sep 22, 2014

There isn't enough demand for EMs to make business sense. They take the same level of work to model and digitize as any other machine, but there's no way any EM would sell as much as a more modern table.

Tech isn't any limiting factor. Scripting an EM's rules is not hard. Farsight has already done that for several tables, accurate enough to be fully playable if not always perfect.

Everybody wants some EM, but everybody wants their preferred EM. Lots of people want Slick Chick, Fireball, Abra Ca Dabra, Atlantis, Space Mission, Aquarius, and so on... but everybody wants a different one out of that list. Combined as a class or new product, all those EMs might come near a modern machine for sales... but that's six tables worth of labor, not one.

Kolchak357 · Sep 22, 2014

I still think the sales of a late EM Gottlieb wouldn't be much different than a more modern Gottlieb such as Lights Camera Action. Plus it wouldn't take up a Bally/Williams spot. Replace one Gottlieb pin with another. Instead of LCA I would have rather seen Royal Flush, Fast Draw, Centigrade 37, Abra Ca Dabra, Big Indian, Joker Poker, Atlantis, Surfer, or many others. I can't image the sales numbers would be much different than LCA. LCA sold less than 2,000 units. So most hadn't played it, and I didn't hear people clamoring for it.

BStarfire · Sep 22, 2014

Scripting the em's isn't hard, but it is time consuming. I have to think kolchak is right that some top em's would do well compared to some lower ranked ss, but perhaps the value vs development time is the limiting factor.

You would think for preserving pinball history it would be good to at least preserve and market the number one EM and I think it would sell well. I think word of mouth would work quickly and dubious users might be surprised like with big shot.

Since a great number of the top ss have been done, there's a large fragmentation on what people want next for even ss games.

There's a lot of opinions towards what EM's but based on the other threads I think Slick Chick, Fireball, and Atlantis would have a major support coalition.

TomL · Sep 22, 2014

vikingerik said:
Tech isn't any limiting factor. Scripting an EM's rules is not hard. Farsight has already done that for several tables, accurate enough to be fully playable if not always perfect.

I thought with scripted tables, it's more work as they have to recreate all the behaviors and rules that emulated ROMs would have handled otherwise.

vikingerik · Sep 22, 2014

Kolchak357 said:
I can't image the sales numbers would be much different than LCA. LCA sold less than 2,000 units.

Quite true, LCA might be a good example for how much an EM would sell. And... LCA was probably a business mistake too.

TomL said:
I thought with scripted tables, it's more work as they have to recreate all the behaviors and rules that emulated ROMs would have handled otherwise.

They do, but it's not that much work. I could write Big Shot's ruleset in a couple hundred lines of C# code probably in a day or two. Implementing the rule set isn't a limiting factor for Farsight doing EMs. It's all about the sales.

TomL · Sep 22, 2014

vikingerik said:
They do, but it's not that much work. I could write Big Shot's ruleset in a couple hundred lines of C# code probably in a day or two.

if rand()>0.001 then drain() ;

is how I would code Big Shot.

IGoFirstIndy · Sep 22, 2014

dave950lam said:
Obviousely, there is a demand for EM tables but perhaps the gameplay doesn't translate to TPA using current emulation tech.

Could Farsight maybe make a sub-game for EM's? Like Pinball after Dark?

Get the Zaccaria pinball app from ask homework if you want to play EMs.

Gorgar · Sep 22, 2014

IGoFirstIndy said:
Get the Zaccaria pinball app from ask homework if you want to play EMs.

I wish. Unfortunately, the Zaccaria app is not available on consoles

Potrzebie · Sep 22, 2014

Or Android (currently in development).

Pinballfan69 · Sep 22, 2014

I guess I'm one that doesn't car for EM tables. I think the rules are just too simplified or perhaps I just love Muti-ball and more complex rule-sets than what the EM have to offer. I just can't get into Big Shot or Central Perk. I'm trying to get into these tables but I just can't.

EldarOfSuburbia · Sep 22, 2014

Pinballfan69 said:
I guess I'm one that doesn't car for EM tables. I think the rules are just too simplified or perhaps I just love Muti-ball and more complex rule-sets than what the EM have to offer. I just can't get into Big Shot or Central Perk. I'm trying to get into these tables but I just can't.

The answer to that is simple: Fireball.

As for Central _Perk_, I don't recall any tables with Jennifer Aniston, David Schwimmer et al, and I'm not sure I'd want to play it if it did exist....

Kolchak357 · Sep 22, 2014

IGoFirstIndy said:
Get the Zaccaria pinball app from ask homework if you want to play EMs.

They are not the EMs most people have grown up playing. In addition they are not even EMs.
That's like saying why get Addams Family in the pinball arcade, just go play Zen it's the same thing.

DokkenRokken · Sep 22, 2014

Kolchak357 said:
I still think the sales of a late EM Gottlieb wouldn't be much different than a more modern Gottlieb such as Lights Camera Action.

If this were true, you'd be seeing another EM instead. Yet, still nothing.

I honestly feel bad for the EM guys, because facts are being ignored and replaced with hope. I've personally requested 1 EM a season, just to make the EM crowd happy, but to no avail. They just don't sell, and aren't that popular. I don't understand why, after hearing from the company, that people keep choosing to not believe that statement? If they sold, we'd see more of them, end of story. (Even *I* have a few EMs I'd like to see happen!)

I'm not sure what else you guys can do, besides dream? I do the same for a number of tables that I KNOW we'll never see. (Silverball Mania, Rescue 911, etc) Then again, I'm not gonna start a hundred threads on them, either. (But that's just me)

Carry on.

Kolchak357 · Sep 22, 2014

I don't think so. They have never released what I call a popular EM. I believe they think LCA would outsell centigrade 37 or Fireball (Bally). I also believe they would be wrong.
No need to feel sorry for EM guys. Eventually when TPA is over someone else will pick up the license and run a bunch of classic EMs. I can wait. If I could play VP of FP on an ipad I'd be doing that right now.

Gorgar · Sep 22, 2014

DokkenRokken said:
If this were true, you'd be seeing another EM instead. Yet, still nothing.

I honestly feel bad for the EM guys, because facts are being ignored and replaced with hope. I've personally requested 1 EM a season, just to make the EM crowd happy, but to no avail. They just don't sell, and aren't that popular. I don't understand why, after hearing from the company, that people keep choosing to not believe that statement? If they sold, we'd see more of them, end of story. (Even *I* have a few EMs I'd like to see happen!)

I'm not sure what else you guys can do, besides dream? I do the same for a number of tables that I KNOW we'll never see. (Silverball Mania, Rescue 911, etc) Then again, I'm not gonna start a hundred threads on them, either. (But that's just me)

Carry on.

The thing bothers me is that the only EM that was ever possible to buy on its own was Big Shot. And you couldn't even buy it on its own if you used PSN. So are they going off of sales of just Big Shot to deem EMs not worthwhile? Are they going off of the Flight 2000 (which isn't even an EM)/ Goin Nuts (which no one has ever heard of, sucks, an is not an em) pack? I think they should do just one more popular EM all by itself and see how it does before they rule them out completely

DokkenRokken · Sep 22, 2014

Kolchak357 said:
I don't think so. They have never released what I call a popular EM. I believe they think LCA would outsell centigrade 37 or Fireball (Bally). I also believe they would be wrong.

Well, unfortunately for you, they run the business of making real, virtual pinball tables, and you do not. I'm going to go out on a limb and say, after this many years, I think they know what sells and what doesn't. I may agree with people on the choice of LCA, but trust me, I've seen more requests for worse Gottlieb tables than that one!

Honestly, I do hope you get your EM tables one day. I'm sure someone will step in eventually.

Gorgar said:
The thing bothers me is that the only EM that was ever possible to buy on its own was Big Shot. And you couldn't even buy it on its own if you used PSN. So are they going off of sales of just Big Shot to deem EMs not worthwhile? Are they going off of the Flight 2000 (which isn't even an EM)/ Goin Nuts (which no one has ever heard of, sucks, an is not an em) pack. I think they should do just one more popular EM all by itself and see how it does before they rule them out completely

Honestly, even if sales were proven to be poor, would anyone believe it? They don't even believe what the company tells them right now! lol

Again, I wouldn't mind one. Of course, the ones I'd like to see are ones that hardly nobody ever mentions.

Pinballfan69 · Sep 22, 2014

EldarOfSuburbia said:
The answer to that is simple: Fireball.

As for Central _Perk_, I don't recall any tables with Jennifer Aniston, David Schwimmer et al, and I'm not sure I'd want to play it if it did exist....

LoL well Central Park. I guess I had Jennifer Aniston on my mind. HA Ha.

Anyway yeah fireball looked real interesting because of the Multi-balls. Other than that............. That's about it from the EM line-up

soundwave106 · Sep 23, 2014

Kolchak357 said:
I don't think so. They have never released what I call a popular EM. I believe they think LCA would outsell centigrade 37 or Fireball (Bally). I also believe they would be wrong.
No need to feel sorry for EM guys. Eventually when TPA is over someone else will pick up the license and run a bunch of classic EMs. I can wait. If I could play VP of FP on an ipad I'd be doing that right now.

My guess is that they are in part basing their opinion on the early solid state they have released so far. Their EM selection certainly has not been stellar, but early SS wise they've released *quite* a few big names: Firepower, Gorgar, and Centaur are certainly not no-name crappy early 80s tables. (One, Centaur, was even a new emulation of a well ranked, well liked table. Firepower, though coming from Williams Hall Of Fame, is at this point the pinball in TPA with the top number produced). They certainly took a chance with the Flight 2000 Stern as well.

One snag is that they've *never* released an EM, or even most of the early SS tables, on its own. So I can't even see how Farsight could really gauge popularity *that* well. I was definitely among the ones who thought that (honestly) a top EM would outsell a mediocre late 1980s Gottlieb though. I'd definitely been more enthused with Fireball vs LCA.

My speculation is that, if they dip their toes in this market again, they'll start with an early SS like Xenon that tends to be requested quite a bit more than any single EM.

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