Most balanced pinball machine?

[Ammonitida]

What is considered the most balanced pinball machine by people who participate in those pinball tournaments? Is there like a general consensus?

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "most balanced". A lot of machines have Tournament Mode settings which takes most of the random element out of the scoring, so they would all be pretty balanced. TotAN has a glitch with stacking Harem Multiball and the final Genie battle which makes it unsuitable for tournament play, and a few other tables have a mode or two whose scoring is out of whack compared to the rest of the table. But the latest Pinburgh tournament that PAPA ran used 180+ different machines, so there are a lot of options.

If you meant more just general flow, accessibility to both novices and experts, and all-around pinball goodness, the Williams and Bally machines from the 90's have a strong claim to "most balanced", but that's of course a very biased and subjective statement - those were the machines I grew up with. If I had to pick specific tables, I'd probably choose Theatre of Magic and Cirqus Voltaire. Medieval Madness would be up there, too, but its Battle for the Kingdom final mode is not exactly accessible to the average player, much less completable, and sometimes I feel like I've run out of things to do on MM. ToM and CV have more accessible wizard modes (although completing them is still a challenge, as it should be) and those two tables always seem to have something new to offer. (CV has eight multiball modes, for heaven's sake!) Addams Family is also very good, but it's a harder table.

The 80's tables were too simple for my taste (although they have a loyal and vocal group of fans), and the early 2000s Stern machines were baroque monstrosities - Ripley's in TPA has done nothing to change my opinion of them. Modern Sterns seem to have shed a layer of complexity, but I have not played enough of them to know.

 

[Ammonitida]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "most balanced". A lot of machines have Tournament Mode settings which takes most of the random element out of the scoring, so they would all be pretty balanced. TotAN has a glitch with stacking Harem Multiball and the final Genie battle which makes it unsuitable for tournament play, and a few other tables have a mode or two whose scoring is out of whack compared to the rest of the table. But the latest Pinburgh tournament that PAPA ran used 180+ different machines, so there are a lot of options.

If you meant more just general flow, accessibility to both novices and experts, and all-around pinball goodness, the Williams and Bally machines from the 90's have a strong claim to "most balanced", but that's of course a very biased and subjective statement - those were the machines I grew up with. If I had to pick specific tables, I'd probably choose Theatre of Magic and Cirqus Voltaire. Medieval Madness would be up there, too, but its Battle for the Kingdom final mode is not exactly accessible to the average player, much less completable, and sometimes I feel like I've run out of things to do on MM. ToM and CV have more accessible wizard modes (although completing them is still a challenge, as it should be) and those two tables always seem to have something new to offer. (CV has eight multiball modes, for heaven's sake!) Addams Family is also very good, but it's a harder table.

The 80's tables were too simple for my taste (although they have a loyal and vocal group of fans), and the early 2000s Stern machines were baroque monstrosities - Ripley's in TPA has done nothing to change my opinion of them. Modern Sterns seem to have shed a layer of complexity, but I have not played enough of them to know.

So TOTAN is a broken game? That sucks to hear. Has it been fixed for pinball arcade?

 

[Jeff Strong]

I would think the ROM is the same, but I'm not positive.

 

[Brian Clark]

The 80's tables were too simple for my taste (although they have a loyal and vocal group of fans), and the early 2000s Stern machines were baroque monstrosities - Ripley's in TPA has done nothing to change my opinion of them. Modern Sterns seem to have shed a layer of complexity, but I have not played enough of them to know.

While this isn't always the case, but I would think some of the more simple games would be more balanced in some ways due to having less things to deal with.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

So TOTAN is a broken game? That sucks to hear. Has it been fixed for pinball arcade?

Presumably if the ROM was emulated exactly, this glitch would be emulated as well, but I have nowhere near the skill required to set up the conditions to re-create the glitch. It's not something that will just happen on its own; I wouldn't consider the table "broken" because of it. It's just not suitable for top-flight tournaments where the players do have the skills to exploit the error.

 

[Ammonitida]

Presumably if the ROM was emulated exactly, this glitch would be emulated as well, but I have nowhere near the skill required to set up the conditions to re-create the glitch. It's not something that will just happen on its own; I wouldn't consider the table "broken" because of it. It's just not suitable for top-flight tournaments where the players do have the skills to exploit the error.

Why is it not suitable though? From what I've read, this glitch just allows you to score points faster. Since this opportunity is provided to every player, no one is given an unfair advantage.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Because in the second part of the Genie Battle, you have unlimited balls until you or the Genie win the battle. If Harem Multiball is running during this time, and you periodically allow a few balls to drain and sit so that you don't actually win the Genie Battle (and therefore end the unlimited balls), you will score points at an ever-increasing rate and your turn will never end. Obviously, this cannot be allowed to happen in a tournament setting where many players must fit their games in within a limited timespan.

 

[Fungi]

Because in the second part of the Genie Battle, you have unlimited balls until you or the Genie win the battle. If Harem Multiball is running during this time, and you periodically allow a few balls to drain and sit so that you don't actually win the Genie Battle (and therefore end the unlimited balls), you will score points at an ever-increasing rate and your turn will never end. Obviously, this cannot be allowed to happen in a tournament setting where many players must fit their games in within a limited timespan.

Wow. Can this be done in TPA, and if so, is this inflating scores on the scoreboard?

 

[Ammonitida]

Wow. Can this be done in TPA, and if so, is this inflating scores on the scoreboard?

An infinite game is EXTREMELY broken! It should be patched with a hack to the ROM emulation. This is Farsight's chance to make the virtual game even better than the real machine!

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Just to put this in perspective, here's what you have to go through to make this work. Note that the glass has been taken off the table in order to expedite the process for the video. It's really tough to make this work in the normal way, and not accidentally make a shot that screws up the delicate process.

Tales of the Arabian Nights Harem Genie Battle

It could be that FarSight has patched their reproduction of the table to prevent this, but until someone with much greater skill than I possess can retrace the steps in the video above and see what happens, I can't tell you whether they have or not.

 

[Fungi]

Wow. That started to look like a pachinko for a while there.

 

[Shaneus]

I suppose it depends on the definition of "balanced". If it depends on whether it's pre or post-DMD (I tend to look over anything earlier than the last few years of EM's, I'm a youngin' at 31 ) then I think pre would be more balanced because there's less of a reliance on variations of repeated table goals if you know what I mean... ie. each story in TotAN, the Peasant/Damsel/Joust goals on MM etc. Those sorts of things are a LOT harder to do without said DMD so the game has to be more refined to be playable with a more limited amount of things to do.

That's only coming from my somewhat limited (IRL) experience with the older ones, though. They just seem more "pure" and fun to play because there's no reliance on flashy animations to differentiate modes. Firepower is right up there

 

[Richard B]

An infinite game is EXTREMELY broken! It should be patched with a hack to the ROM emulation. This is Farsight's chance to make the virtual game even better than the real machine!

NO! Farsight's goal should be to emulate these machines as authentically as possible. This means including errors and problems the original machines had.

 

[Fungi]

I suppose it depends on the definition of "balanced". If it depends on whether it's pre or post-DMD (I tend to look over anything earlier than the last few years of EM's, I'm a youngin' at 31 ) then I think pre would be more balanced because there's less of a reliance on variations of repeated table goals if you know what I mean... ie. each story in TotAN, the Peasant/Damsel/Joust goals on MM etc. Those sorts of things are a LOT harder to do without said DMD so the game has to be more refined to be playable with a more limited amount of things to do.

That's only coming from my somewhat limited (IRL) experience with the older ones, though. They just seem more "pure" and fun to play because there's no reliance on flashy animations to differentiate modes. Firepower is right up there

Wow. I never thought of how important the DMD was in that way. It's immensely important in telling a story. That reminds me of when I used to make tables with Pinball Construction Set, I used to have to tell the "story" by painting words on the table in as few words as possible. Now with DMD, I can tell when I've rescued the princess or that there's even a princess to be rescued in the first place. All this time, I just thought of it as a fancy score board with cartoons.

 

[superballs]

NO! Farsight's goal should be to emulate these machines as authentically as possible. This means including errors and problems the original machines had.

I agree 100%, the real challenge for them now seems to be doing so on multiple platforms without introducing more bugs...

That being said, i think i have to say Eight Ball Deluxe. I don't really have a set criteria but when i play that game, the layout is dead simple but there is the pocketing of your stripes or solids (depending on which player you are), the left orbit which eventually gets you an extra ball, the multipliers, the A-B-C-D targets, the DELUXE targets. It's a fast and challenging table with plenty to do, but without being busy. Hell the ball doesn't leave the main playing surface at all.

If I were to go newer, I would have to say High Speed 2: The Getaway.
This table features amazing music and great sounds. Cool DMD animations and a real flow from start to finish. The top loop, the supercharger, the outer orbits to increase your RPMs and score the freeway millions. The video mode, the tunnel shot. Each locked ball acts like the wanted ratings in the Grand Theft Auto series, finally locking the third one and scoring the jackpot to "escape". Redline Mania. This game is an ever progressing adrenaline rush from start to finish.