Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="invitro" data-source="post: 239751" data-attributes="member: 446">But they are &quot;planned,&quot; in the way that you mean it.Here's how it works.&nbsp; In reality, if you flip at 0.2 seconds after the ball starts down the flipper, and later flip 0.201 seconds after, you will get two different results.&nbsp; This can't happen in a digital simulation unless the code has &quot;time resolution&quot; &lt;= 0.001 second.&nbsp; But if the resolution is low enough, you won't notice.The problem is that in TPA, the resolution is not low enough.&nbsp; This varies from table to table, and among flippers, and if the ball was moving or still before starting down the flipper.&nbsp; There is an array of possibilities hard-coded into the table .rez file that determines the resulting ball trajectory.&nbsp; So in MM, perhaps a R flipper shot at a moving ball goes up the L ramp, with the exact same trajectory, if you flip between 0.2 seconds and 0.35 seconds.I say these things based on experience playing TPA, but mainly because of the presence of things like the following in the table code.&nbsp; This is taken/extracted from the TFnHouse.Rez file, PC/Steam revision 1.41.7, which was right after the change was made to make possible ~8 previously-impossible shots, and I think this is the change to Physics 3.0 but I'm not sure <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown&nbsp; &nbsp; :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" /> :[code]Table = PBObject:FlipperUpperLeft&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Object, PB_OBJECTTYPE_FLIPPER, 2500,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Switch, 12,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; DilPos, upper flipper L, 0,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Models, 1, RSID_TFUNHOUSE_MODELS, 22,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Lights, Def_Flippers,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Collision, Mesh, 2, RSID_TFUNHOUSE_COLLISIONS, 1, RSID_TFUNHOUSE_COLLISIONS, 0,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SwitchEOS, 2,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; EnvMapReflection, True,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Vars, 2, 40.0, 78.0,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; UseAccurateLength&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; UseSpecialRotation, True,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; //1(length) 2(angle speed down) 3(elasticity when flipper static) 4 (elasticity when dropping) 5(bottom speed mult) 6(number of trnsfer pts)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Physics, UpperLeft, 350, 26, 0.5, 0.25, 0.3, 10,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint2, 0.13,&nbsp; 24,&nbsp;&nbsp; 110, 200,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp;&nbsp; 220, 250,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint2, 0.20,&nbsp; 26,&nbsp;&nbsp; 220, 270,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp;&nbsp; 250, 320,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint2, 0.24,&nbsp; 28,&nbsp;&nbsp; 290, 270,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp;&nbsp; 250, 320,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint2, 0.35,&nbsp; 32,&nbsp;&nbsp; 340, 270,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp;&nbsp; 280, 320,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint2, 0.55,&nbsp; 36,&nbsp;&nbsp; 360, 320,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp;&nbsp; 295, 360,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint2, 0.77,&nbsp; 42,&nbsp;&nbsp; 370, 350,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp;&nbsp; 320, 390,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint2, 0.86,&nbsp; 45,&nbsp;&nbsp; 335, 320,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp;&nbsp; 285, 360,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint2, 0.92,&nbsp; 50,&nbsp;&nbsp; 285, 270,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp;&nbsp; 245, 310,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint2, 0.98,&nbsp; 60,&nbsp;&nbsp; 220, 200,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp;&nbsp; 200, 250,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint2, 1.00,&nbsp; 70,&nbsp;&nbsp; 140, 150,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp;&nbsp; 140, 200,//&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint, 0.12,&nbsp; 26,&nbsp;&nbsp; 155, 120,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,//&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint, 0.15, 30,&nbsp;&nbsp; 250, 200,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,//&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint, 0.25, 33.8,&nbsp;&nbsp; 345, 250,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,//&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint, 0.35,&nbsp; 34,&nbsp;&nbsp; 345, 300,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,//&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint, 0.355, 34,&nbsp;&nbsp; 345, 300,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,//&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint, 0.40,&nbsp; 38,&nbsp;&nbsp; 345, 300,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,//&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint, 0.405, 45,&nbsp;&nbsp; 345, 300,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,//&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint, 0.65,&nbsp; 60,&nbsp;&nbsp; 345, 300,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,//&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint, 0.655, 63,&nbsp;&nbsp; 275, 325,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,//&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint, 0.90,&nbsp; 64,&nbsp;&nbsp; 135, 325,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,//&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TransferPoint, 1.00,&nbsp; 65,&nbsp; &nbsp; 80, 100,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; 0,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sound, Generic, GEN_SOUND_HIT_defaultTableEnd = PBObject:FlipperUpperLeft[/code]Now, I don't know what all those things mean, but I think it shows the change that was made in the Funhouse upper flipper shot trajectories, and is evidence for the claims I make above.&nbsp; (There were a few other changes that were made in this part of the FH.rez file at the same time.)Extracting and analyzing these bits of data is not trivial for me and so I haven't done anything other than yank a few bits like the above and stare at them some.&nbsp; So I'm mainly just throwing this out there and saying hey, look at this, maybe this will explain some things that aren't clear.&nbsp; <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; I may be wrong... don't believe me, believe the data.&nbsp; <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />(Also: I'll say that it's been known or suspected for a long time that some shots in MM and some other tables had been made easier than normal physics would allow.&nbsp; This includes the &quot;ramp vacuum&quot; and other things that people talk about.&nbsp; The L ramp in CftBL is a particular/extreme example of a ramp vacuum.&nbsp; I personally think the lock shot in MM is the most noticeable vacuum in that table.&nbsp; And I will guess that your noticing the vacuums in multiball over single-ball is just an illusion, because I don't recall seeing a difference trajectory array for multiball anywhere, and because there are logical reasons why you could be led to such an illusion. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />)I hope you're not expecting too much from the 4.0 physics.&nbsp; I don't think it's logical to expect more than the change from 2.0 to 3.0, which was very minor: vikingerik has posted in detail about that.&nbsp; However, the change in general table quality has increased in I believe a major way which may make it seem like 2.0/3.0 is a bigger change than it actually is.(And for my own opinion, I'm quite satisfied with TPA physics in terms of getting value for my money.&nbsp; I don't need SPA to have any improved physics at all.&nbsp; I know TPA is not perfect, nor all that close to Pro Pinball physics quality, but being able to play simulations of real machines is far more important to me than the physics, and getting lots of new Stern tables is far more important than getting a big Physics 4.0 change.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="invitro, post: 239751, member: 446"] But they [I]are "[/I]planned," in the way that you mean it. Here's how it works. In reality, if you flip at 0.2 seconds after the ball starts down the flipper, and later flip 0.201 seconds after, you will get two different results. This can't happen in a digital simulation unless the code has "time resolution" <= 0.001 second. But if the resolution is low enough, you won't notice. The problem is that in TPA, the resolution is not low enough. This varies from table to table, and among flippers, and if the ball was moving or still before starting down the flipper. There is an array of possibilities hard-coded into the table .rez file that determines the resulting ball trajectory. So in MM, perhaps a R flipper shot at a moving ball goes up the L ramp, with the exact same trajectory, if you flip between 0.2 seconds and 0.35 seconds. I say these things based on experience playing TPA, but mainly because of the presence of things like the following in the table code. This is taken/extracted from the TFnHouse.Rez file, PC/Steam revision 1.41.7, which was right after the change was made to make possible ~8 previously-impossible shots, and I think this is the change to Physics 3.0 but I'm not sure :( : [code] Table = PBObject:FlipperUpperLeft Object, PB_OBJECTTYPE_FLIPPER, 2500, Switch, 12, DilPos, upper flipper L, 0, Models, 1, RSID_TFUNHOUSE_MODELS, 22, Lights, Def_Flippers, Collision, Mesh, 2, RSID_TFUNHOUSE_COLLISIONS, 1, RSID_TFUNHOUSE_COLLISIONS, 0, SwitchEOS, 2, EnvMapReflection, True, Vars, 2, 40.0, 78.0, UseAccurateLength UseSpecialRotation, True, //1(length) 2(angle speed down) 3(elasticity when flipper static) 4 (elasticity when dropping) 5(bottom speed mult) 6(number of trnsfer pts) Physics, UpperLeft, 350, 26, 0.5, 0.25, 0.3, 10, TransferPoint2, 0.13, 24, 110, 200, 0, 0, 220, 250, TransferPoint2, 0.20, 26, 220, 270, 0, 0, 250, 320, TransferPoint2, 0.24, 28, 290, 270, 0, 0, 250, 320, TransferPoint2, 0.35, 32, 340, 270, 0, 0, 280, 320, TransferPoint2, 0.55, 36, 360, 320, 0, 0, 295, 360, TransferPoint2, 0.77, 42, 370, 350, 0, 0, 320, 390, TransferPoint2, 0.86, 45, 335, 320, 0, 0, 285, 360, TransferPoint2, 0.92, 50, 285, 270, 0, 0, 245, 310, TransferPoint2, 0.98, 60, 220, 200, 0, 0, 200, 250, TransferPoint2, 1.00, 70, 140, 150, 0, 0, 140, 200, // TransferPoint, 0.12, 26, 155, 120, 0, 0, // TransferPoint, 0.15, 30, 250, 200, 0, 0, // TransferPoint, 0.25, 33.8, 345, 250, 0, 0, // TransferPoint, 0.35, 34, 345, 300, 0, 0, // TransferPoint, 0.355, 34, 345, 300, 0, 0, // TransferPoint, 0.40, 38, 345, 300, 0, 0, // TransferPoint, 0.405, 45, 345, 300, 0, 0, // TransferPoint, 0.65, 60, 345, 300, 0, 0, // TransferPoint, 0.655, 63, 275, 325, 0, 0, // TransferPoint, 0.90, 64, 135, 325, 0, 0, // TransferPoint, 1.00, 65, 80, 100, 0, 0, Sound, Generic, GEN_SOUND_HIT_default TableEnd = PBObject:FlipperUpperLeft [/code] Now, I don't know what all those things mean, but I think it shows the change that was made in the Funhouse upper flipper shot trajectories, and is evidence for the claims I make above. (There were a few other changes that were made in this part of the FH.rez file at the same time.) Extracting and analyzing these bits of data is not trivial for me and so I haven't done anything other than yank a few bits like the above and stare at them some. So I'm mainly just throwing this out there and saying hey, look at this, maybe this will explain some things that aren't clear. :) I may be wrong... don't believe me, believe the data. :) (Also: I'll say that it's been known or suspected for a long time that some shots in MM and some other tables had been made easier than normal physics would allow. This includes the "ramp vacuum" and other things that people talk about. The L ramp in CftBL is a particular/extreme example of a ramp vacuum. I personally think the lock shot in MM is the most noticeable vacuum in that table. And I will guess that your noticing the vacuums in multiball over single-ball is just an illusion, because I don't recall seeing a difference trajectory array for multiball anywhere, and because there are logical reasons why you could be led to such an illusion. :)) I hope you're not expecting too much from the 4.0 physics. I don't think it's logical to expect more than the change from 2.0 to 3.0, which was very minor: vikingerik has posted in detail about that. However, the change in general table quality has increased in I believe a [I]major [/I]way which may make it seem like 2.0/3.0 is a bigger change than it actually is. (And for my own opinion, I'm quite satisfied with TPA physics in terms of getting value for my money. I don't need SPA to have any improved physics at all. I know TPA is not perfect, nor all that close to Pro Pinball physics quality, but being able to play simulations of real machines is far more important to me than the physics, and getting lots of new Stern tables is far more important than getting a big Physics 4.0 change.) [/QUOTE]

Verification

Reply to thread

Members online

Newest members