No Good Gofers - Blue Transparent Ramps on iOS should be possible?

[francis247uk]

I know it's been mentioned before but after playing Infinity Blade, Real Racing 3 etc I'm sure TPA should be able to graphically handle blue transparent ramps in NGG by now, they have grey ones in CFTBL, have FS commented on why they couldn't be incorporated?

 

[Mark W**a]

They are on record saying that it's a hardware issue. Which is complete BS.

They are also on record saying Family Mode off is a policy due to ESRB (lie since DLC is also rated by ESRB, AND Medieval Madness has family mode OFF by default).

They are also on record saying emulation of pre-system 11 hardware is not possible (and now retracted because Black Knight is getting emulated).

You can't really trust them, I'm sorry to say.

Bottom line though: it's complete BS. Arabian Nights, a launch table, as big, huge, transparent ramps. Creature has them, Funhouse has them, so on and so forth.

IIRC even the PS3 version has non-transparent ramps... why they made this decision is beyond me. Really ruins Gofers since you can't tell what the hell you're shooting at with the upper flipper, the pops are covered, the outlanes are covered... Very stupid decision that makes no sense.

 

[Timelord]

Mark, there's a fine line between constructive and non-constructive criticism. Please examine your post in light of those differences. Everyone here want's these tables to be the best that can possibly be, but calling FarSight liars will not mitigate to a better product will it?

They never claimed that pre-system 11 hardware emulation was not possible, only that they couldn't manage to do it. They went back with more resources and worked out all the machine state definitions, transitions, etc. to emulate the hardware and we should be thankful that they did, not call them a liar. Emulation at his level is not exactly trivial and they have finite resources.

We all want transparent ramps. They never said it wasn't possible, only that the frame rate took a hit when it was done that way. I'm hoping that they will work out this issue as well, but again finite resources.

I'm not even going to comment on the family mode other than to say than "It is what it is". That's their decision, get over it.

Maybe you should be just a bit less heavy handed.

My $.02

Timelord...

 

[Mark W**a]

I only used the word "lie" when referring to the Family Mode comment, which yes, was a lie and no, I'm not going to "get over it", it's bullcrap. All it does for tables like Mars is, detract from the production because some lines of dialog, which are not even offensive, are cut and the only way to experience the "uncensored" table is to pay more. And even if you do pay more, you can't post high scores with Family Mode Off so what's the point. It's just unnneccesary and the way Farsight explained it was yes, bold faced lying. Not white lies, not a half truth, a bold faced lie.

As for Gophers, I'm no coder I have no idea why they are opaque, when Arabian Nights are transparent. New artists? New coders since Arabian? I don't know. I'm just saying, whatever "excuse" farsight gives will always be taken with a grain of salt from me, sorry to say, that's how I feel about it.

When they said emulation of pre-system 11 couldn't be done, some posters were like "oh bummer guess that's reality". And they didn't say, to my recollection, "it's something we haven't implemented into the engine yet" they said "it can't be done, it's too old and the processors are too fast on modern devices.". Something to that effect. I could be wrong on that, but anyways, my point is, when that comment was made I was one of a few others who said "that's kinda a lame excuse, since you can emulate Atari or Coleco, or hell Pong, on a modern computer". A few weeks later Farsight announces Black Knight emulation so my point is, it's good to hold them to a high standard, hold their feet to the fire, and not just go along with the company line bs!

 

[Timelord]

Not here to argue, especially with someone who like to as much as you do.

You are on <IGNORE> .

Gave a great day

Timelord ...

 

[Mark W**a]

Lol umm ok.

 

[night]

Do I see it correctly that all re-release tables have perfect transparency and all new tables have bad ones?

 

[grashopper]

Gofers is a re-release

 

[night]

Gofers is a re-release

Correct. But Gofers does not have transparency at all. FunHouse/ TOTAN, TOM, even FirePower has a little perfect transparent part in the top. Look at the transparency simulation of CftBL, CC, it looks like chrome-opague stuff. It's completely different. Different teams, inconsistency. I try to figure out how many graphic teams they have. At least 2. Team 1 does tables like FunHouse/CV/Taxi/and all the original first few tables. I suspect we have the team that does tables like Gorgar/Firepower, they do a great job. And then we have the team that does tables like CC, TZ, they screw it up. They can't texture, they can't handle table shadows, they just don't have the right skills. I bet 2 or 3 teams.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Correct. But Gofers does not have transparency at all.

Wait, what? The entire upper playfield is transparent. That's the stated reason for the ramps being opaque. If the ramps were transparent, too, the amount of overdraw required apparently would kill performance on older devices.

Personally, I think it's time to implement basic graphics settings on Android/iOS...even if it's just low or high...so that players who do have capable devices can better enjoy the tables, while allowing players with old devices to still play the game. As it is, whenever I want to play NGG I have to fire up PHOF so I can see the outlanes...but then I have to deal with the helium-filled ball.

 

[night]

Wait, what? The entire upper playfield is transparent.

My bad.
I don't like the look of this table, almost no shadows, flat, and you know I hate that. This table deserves to be spiced-up.
And I agree with graphic settings for the mobiles.

 

[gooche77]

I'll also agree with adjustable graphics settings for mobile.

 

[Mark W**a]

Wait, what? The entire upper playfield is transparent. That's the stated reason for the ramps being opaque. If the ramps were transparent, too, the amount of overdraw required apparently would kill performance on older devices.

Personally, I think it's time to implement basic graphics settings on Android/iOS...even if it's just low or high...so that players who do have capable devices can better enjoy the tables, while allowing players with old devices to still play the game. As it is, whenever I want to play NGG I have to fire up PHOF so I can see the outlanes...but then I have to deal with the helium-filled ball.

Agreed.

Screw iPhone 3G owners lol, I want my transparent ramps!

Though certainly they could trick their way around that overdraw... heck you could kinda get away with, no transparent upper playfield... you follow. Just, nothing there, imaginary, like the glass on top the pinball machine... then do the ramps see through, boom fixed.

 

[netizen]

FunHouse has a little perfect transparent part in the top.

LOL, really? The perfect transparency that makes it so you cannot see the ball through the steps ramp? The same transparency that has been complained about time and time again because it interferes with the looping goals and getting the trapdoor timing, all due to NOT being able to see the ball.

That Perfect Transparency?
I think that word means something different than how you keep using it.

 

[Mark W**a]

Really you don't have to mention any other table than Arabian Nights. Yes many others have a little bit, but that one has HUGE transparent ramps that cover a good half the screen all told. And it's a launch table. Bride, Dude, Creature, so on and so forth, have transparency, but not on the scope of Arabian and Gophers has quite large ramps.

The issue, as Sean pointed out, is overdraw, which makes sense. That's why I say just remove that transparent white plastic altogether, keep the collision mesh of course, but go with transparent ramps. It's a fair trade off and yeah it won't look perfect but it's a lot better than it is now.

 

[night]

LOL, really? The perfect transparency that makes it so you cannot see the ball through the steps ramp? The same transparency that has been complained about time and time again because it interferes with the looping goals and getting the trapdoor timing, all due to NOT being able to see the ball.

That Perfect Transparency?
I think that word means something different than how you keep using it.

I didn't say that, and you didn't quote me.. I said FIREPOWER has a little perfect transparent part in the top.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Really you don't have to mention any other table than Arabian Nights. Yes many others have a little bit, but that one has HUGE transparent ramps that cover a good half the screen all told. And it's a launch table. Bride, Dude, Creature, so on and so forth, have transparency, but not on the scope of Arabian and Gophers has quite large ramps.

The issue, as Sean pointed out, is overdraw, which makes sense. That's why I say just remove that transparent white plastic altogether, keep the collision mesh of course, but go with transparent ramps. It's a fair trade off and yeah it won't look perfect but it's a lot better than it is now.

One thing to keep in mind with TOTAN (and also Theatre of Magic), is that a lot of that surface area looks transparent but isn't. You only have to have true transparency if the ball (or some other moving object, like Bud and Buzz) is going to be able to pass below the "transparent" object. Otherwise, you can use a static texture that gives the appearance of transparency without actually having to overdraw.

On both TOTAN and Theatre, a lot of the transparent areas are over places where the ball can't go, so the overdraw burden may be comparatively light relative to the area covered. In contrast, NGG's entire upper playfield is transparent and the ball can reach most of the space beneath it, so true transparency (and therefore its corresponding overdraw burden) is required.

I don't know that this is the actual reason why TOTAN can get away with a lot of (pseudo-)transparency and NGG is saddled with opaque ramps, but it's the most plausible reasoning I've come across so far.

 

[night]

One thing to keep in mind with TOTAN (and also Theatre of Magic), is that a lot of that surface area looks transparent but isn't. You only have to have true transparency if the ball (or some other moving object, like Bud and Buzz) is going to be able to pass below the "transparent" object. Otherwise, you can use a static texture that gives the appearance of transparency without actually having to overdraw.

I doubt this. With a static look this can be, but TPA is dynamic, so an image map that 'loos like' transparency isn't going to work when the camera changes angle.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I doubt this. With a static look this can be, but TPA is dynamic, so an image map that 'loos like' transparency isn't going to work when the camera changes angle.

Hmm...I was just thinking they'd need static textures for the 4 fixed camera angles, but I forgot the camera can be unlocked and moving about even within a single angle setting.

 

[shutyertrap]

IIRC even the PS3 version has non-transparent ramps... why they made this decision is beyond me. Really ruins Gofers since you can't tell what the hell you're shooting at with the upper flipper, the pops are covered, the outlanes are covered... Very stupid decision that makes no sense.

Um, I can see through the ramps on Gofers on the PS3. If you are referring to them being blue instead of clear, I can also confirm that I saw with my own eyes the Gofers table FS has, and it indeed has blue ramps.

Bobby had also told me with Dr Dude that the shear number of polygons involved with that upper area of the table was giving them fits with the mobile, thus why it looks the way it does.