Satisfied with price of digital pinballs? Willing to pay more? Less?

[HighFive]

Been scouting facebook Farsight and Zen pages, and something took my attention. I see a lot of people whining about prices of Farsight tables, packs, and Zen format.

Sure when it was release in the past, it was like what? About 2-3$ a table? And now as example, Farsight released Big Buck and Whoa Nellie at way higher price than usual like 10$ a table. I see people complaining at 5$ , ACDC was too expensive. Zen price are like about 3-4$ per table, sold as pack, and some people are not happy they cannot buy them separately.( not here to discuss the mobile price, thats another subject )

So if we look at this, perhaps the problem was that from the start digital pinball price was not expensive enough? Sure some tables are better than some others. If as an example, i would have the choice of paying 10$ each for Theater of Magic, Safecracker and Champions Pub, i would have been hesitant to pay for Safecracker, Champions Pub, they are just not personal favorite. But i bought the pack exclusively for ToM. For me, this table worth alone the 10$. But for some, perhaps they would have bought all athree without hesitation.

Would you be ready to pay 10$ for one table? Be ready to pay between 20-30$ for BKSOR alone? If the past, not a lot of pinball games were available, and game with like 1 table like Timeshock, Big Race USA were selling for a big price alone. Are we just now more critics of price we are paying now because it was really cheap imo in the past? Are we doing ourselves a favour by thinking paying 3$ a table is right?

I think Zen price are very good, its similar to what was available in the past with TPA. But whatever happen next with Stern License or bigger license tables from WMS, are you ready to pay more per table? Whats the price you consider acceptable?

For me, its a question of what is offered. Id pay 3$ max as example for a table like CSI. But i would not mind to spend 20$ for BKSOR, The Munsters, or more newer pinballs. And if the WMS licensed tables could be more expensive, i will be ok with it.

 

[shutyertrap]

Zen has stated selling tables in packs and not individually is what allows them to sell at the price they do. In other words, it's sorta like how in order for a cable company to carry ESPN, they have to also buy Disney channel, National Geographic, and a host of other channels you the consumer probably couldn't care less about. While you the consumer might be happy paying the $8 for just ESPN and maybe another $5 for one of the others, the stockholders want to justify the reason for all those other channels existing. So they charge the cable company $12 for the whole block and then can brag about their install base for all 8 or 9 channels.

When it comes to the actual pricing of digital pinball tables, there's a few ways to look at it.

Take FormSlinger's Pinball Wicked, which is a single table costing $10. It looks phenomenal, is pretty fun and plays well. It's higher than what I'd like to pay, but the price is justifiable.

Now imagine they released the FormSlinger's platform, a collection of 50 pinball tables for the single price of $500. How many will they sell now? Suddenly that one time $10 purchase seems absurdly high, doesn't it?

I've always felt the model FarSight took up was earily similar to what Rock Band did except for one thing; they skipped the base game and went straight to DLC. I mean what a deal, you buy Rock Band 3, there's well over 60 songs to play, making each cost less than a buck per, and you don't even think about the fact you only wanted to play a third of them. Then there was the monthly (or was it weekly?) DLC that was $3 here, $5 there, until next thing you know, a library of over 5000 songs exists, and some people actually bought EVERY SINGLE ONE! At full price.

FarSight did a bit of a bait and switch on us, in that we were getting 2 tables each month, for $5 (bargain) and then introduced the season pass for season 2, which discounted the tables even further (super bargain!) Of course that blew up in everyone's face when 3 months in a row we got Gottlieb releases. Then comes season 3 with the announcement of only 1 table per month but the price would remain the same. By this point you probably knew if you were one of those people that was going to own every table no matter what (pot committed) or were happy to be selective (fold that hand!)

Zen's packs cost slightly more than what FarSight introduced ($3 per table) but seem to be at a sweet spot for value. If you have the patience, Zen also runs sales all the time. At one point, I picked up 24 tables in a Humble Bundle deal for $6, and then another 30 in a Steam sale for less than $20 due to many being 75% off. That was a few years ago, but still.

A table here, a table there, it all seems manageable. Then you decide to switch platforms (I had switched from PS3 to Steam) and are gobsmacked at how much it's going to cost you to buy everything once more. That's why I don't get it when people are like, "gimme any Stern table FarSight, I'll pay $20 just to have something new" because they're not seeing the forest for the trees. The burden of cost should not be passed on to the consumer simply because of a license. The development time Zen puts into an original table (Castle Storm, Son of Zeuss, even Tesla) probably costs in man hours close to what a fully developed license does.

Let them work out the economics of it, as sometimes you take the loss just to get more exposure which will in turn bring in more new revenue. Zen is releasing the 19 Star Wars tables to the Switch in 2 months. They've already started hyping it, they are beyond thrilled to be the FIRST Star Wars game to come to the Switch, but I guarantee they had to sign a new license agreement to get it on the platform, and I bet it wasn't cheap. Will it be worth it though when unsuspecting Star Wars fans that don't play pinball suddenly find themselves wanting more? Into the Nintendo eShop they go, and wow look at all those tables! Saw it happen in a video posted from the SWCC where two gals that knew nothing of pinball totally got sucked in because of the Star Wars theming, only to come away wanting to play more pinball. So even if the licensing cost went up (pure speculation on my part), Zen chose to keep the cost the same as it's always been. This creates a positive ecosphere where no one pack is viewed as 'premium' and others viewed as 'bargain basement'.

 

[kimkom]

I'm amazed that Zen can offer the WMS tables at the price they do. I think they are extremely good value for money for a quality product.

The staff at Zen are doing a fantastic job and I am happy to support them. In doing so, I get to play these beautifully recreated tables from a golden era of pinball. What could be better?

 

[Kolchak357]

I’ve always felt FarSight, Zaccaria, and Zen prices were fair for what you get. Often a bargain.

Price and value are personal evaluations though. $5 to me and $5 to a kid in 7th grade could be 2 very different things.

 

[wilbers]

One thing that is surprising with FX3 but obviously works well otherwise they wouldn't do it is how quickly new table packs go on sale, frequently at 50% or even in some cases 60% off; for example with the Williams packs they could easily have chosen to keep them at or near (20% off) full price with deep discounts after some time, such as pack 1 only getting to 50% off in the sales we've just had. In last years summer sale I didn't buy all the table packs in FX3 as I didn't know then how much I like pinball, ended up as all the unlicensed tables + Universal Pack + Portal + a Star Wars pack. By Christmas I'd bought all of them (got lots in a November sale), including the Marvel ones that I'm generally less keen on (think there are a couple I still haven't played at all). Bought all the Williams packs at full price as they came out, would I have bought the earlier tables at full price without knowing what I do now - Portal, Adventure Land, Back to the Future probably, some others not so much. Frequent sales do make it easy to get started, if someone misses a sale another will be along soon, no having to wait for 6 months.

Just had a look and everything in FX3 at full price is £192.29 on Steam - wouldn't get that many takers buying all that in one go, but if someone comes along with £10 (or even £5) they can pick something.

I've topped up the rest of my pinball games in this sale, added TPA Stern pack 2, Timeshock, and not really a fan of EM's but got Zaccaria's campaign mode.

 

[HighFive]

I think the price is right. Its pretty good value when we buy a pack. But just wondering how far are you willing to go if as example, Zen gets Stern license one day, and price goes up with the license , or if it could be in the discussion in order to make it happen. Im just on the side i wouldnt mind paying more for more recent tables, and if wms licensed tables are more expensive, i just hope we wont see people whining about a little price increase, thinking it could be the cost to get these licensed one in. Look at Star Trek, Ghost Busters, Mustang, and previously ACDC, at 10$ a table, even if previously TPA price were lower, i still think they are good value. But at the same time, looking at Big Buck Hunter and Whoa Nellie, them being at that price, im not sure its the right price.

 

[dmil666]

I think that the prices are good, in fact a bargain. I'd be willing to pay more for some of the licensed tables, depending on the table & $$.

 

[shutyertrap]

A movie that cost 1 million to make costs the same to go see as one that cost 200 million. When it comes out on video, it doesn’t matter if the movie was a bomb or a hit, there’s a standard release price. This leveling of the playfield is important for keeping negotiations between actors, directors, producers, crew, distributors, etc consistent. The risk gets put entirely on who is financing it.

Imagine if to see the latest Avengers you were asked to pay $45 a ticket because the budget was north of 200 mil. Then you go see John Wick but the tix only cost $15. Rather than taking both movies at face value and letting them entertain you, now there are other factors clouding your opinion. It’s sort of what happens when a movie bombs hard despite being actually good. The perception is it must have been bad and that’s why no one saw it, but then it lands on cable and people check it out and suddenly the thing takes on a new life.

We inherently attach worth and status to things based on cost. Super pricey means luxury which means status for yourself if you have it. Never mind the fact the item is being made side by side with its bargain priced cousin in the same factory by the same workers. This to me is what is so bothersome with Stern’s LE vs Premium machines. Does that little numbered plaque really justify the $1000 mark up?

Zen keeping the price the same regardless of if a table is original, licensed, a Williams, a Stern, a whatever, it shows all IPs are valued the same and it’ll be up to the consumer to decide if one earns more money than another. This helps Zen with negotiating contracts with all, showing no favoritism.

 

[dmil666]

That's a good policy, and something that I didn't consider.

 

[Plungemaster]

Still did not buy 1 Zen williams cause in every pack i only want 1 pin. Atm i would have paid for 12 pins only playing 4. Waisting valuable Switch memory space also.

I dont want that. Sell each pin for 4 dollars each and everybody wins.

 

[shutyertrap]

Still did not buy 1 Zen williams cause in every pack i only want 1 pin. Atm i would have paid for 12 pins only playing 4. Waisting valuable Switch memory space also.

I dont want that. Sell each pin for 4 dollars each and everybody wins.

No, everybody does not win, only you. The person spending the least.

 

[zmcvay]

Good points, but quality can be worth extra. In the 90's what digital pinball there was was fun, but generally in no way comparable to the real thing. Usually you got them in a pack for $30-40 dollars for 3-4 tables, running about $10 per table, considering that's not taking inflation into account that's already a lot by today's standards. Then there was the Pro Pinball series, which cost the same, but only had one table attached to each purchase. I wish I had numbers for how well it did comparatively, but it must have done well enough as they eventually made 4 tables total. But if you really wanted more of a pinball feel at the time, nothing else was even close.

The video games/movies comparison is good, but I don't feel completely applicable. Games are starting to settle into more variable pricing, but in a good way compared to the movie example above. $60 was pretty much the base cost for any game coming out, but now you are seeing indie games come out at $20 or lower new. So yes, we are in a point in the games industry where you would be paying more to see the Avengers level, but it would be more like if art house flicks cost less to see then the standard rather than blockbusters costing more.

But yeah, I think Zen and Farsight give great value for what you get, and I'm always happy to buy their tables, even when they don't initially look like something I'm thrilled about.

 

[Firefox2000]

Well, PBA were charging me here in the UK £30 for 10 tables, on Zen i would have got 12 tables for that price, BUT!, Zen have way more sales, so at this point i have WP 1,2 and 3(9 tables) and i so far only paid £16, so if i were to buy WP pack 4 for full price right now for £7, that would mean i would have 12 WP tables for £23, can't grumble with that.

 

[rehtroboi40]

Mr. Trap, once again you have it right. This one of the most common gripes of paying for cable TV. I can also see that being a valid complaint against retro compilations-so many games you will play once, if at all, combined with some well-known true classics.

On the other hand, buying tables "a la carte" could be considerably more expensive, kind of like Farsight selling season passes. Pay $5 for each individual table, or get a pass making all 10 tables available when released at a cost of $3 each. If you want to save money overall, sometimes that means tolerating some bloat you don't need.

 

[shutyertrap]

The video games/movies comparison is good, but I don't feel completely applicable. Games are starting to settle into more variable pricing, but in a good way compared to the movie example above. $60 was pretty much the base cost for any game coming out, but now you are seeing indie games come out at $20 or lower new. So yes, we are in a point in the games industry where you would be paying more to see the Avengers level, but it would be more like if art house flicks cost less to see then the standard rather than blockbusters costing more.

I can't resist a good movie analogy...

AAA game titles coming out that cost $60 compared to micro budget indies costing $20, true it doesn't compare apples to apples with the movie industry. Customer buying habits have been shaped differently over the years. Zen is obviously an indie studio themselves, but they are much larger than Magic Pixel and FormSlingers. All of them however are making pinball games. So let's look at the argument brought up then that within one studio's game, there'd be different pricing (the example given was paying $3 for CSI but $10-$20 for BK:SoR).

Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, all leading up to Avengers, these were all big ticket AAA characters as far as Marvel was concerned with the MCU. Let's call these all deserving of the $20 movie ticket. Then they put out Ant-Man. Hardly a AAA character, lower budget film, untested director, starring a comedian. So they charge $10 for a movie ticket. We get another Thor movie, another Cap America, and then some movie featuring a talking racoon and a tree? Like they are really scraping the barrel to see what audiences will accept! Back to $10 for a ticket. Turns out to be a huge hit. And then Civil War comes out and Ant-Man works within the scheme of all the other heroes. Next time we see Guardians of the Galaxy or Ant-Man and the Wasp, are those tickets $20 now because of the importance those characters now play in the MCU? When Avengers: Endgame comes out, does it now cost $30 because it literally features everyone?

Zen is making digital pinball games. Don't sell me Bob's Burgers at twice the price of Aliens, simply because it's newer. Or because you like that show better. If everything is viewed as being the same value, I'm more likely to give something like Bob's Burgers a spin because of how well the Aliens table was done.

 

[shutyertrap]

Mr. Trap, once again you have it right. This one of the most common gripes of paying for cable TV. I can also see that being a valid complaint against retro compilations-so many games you will play once, if at all, combined with some well-known true classics.

On the other hand, buying tables "a la carte" could be considerably more expensive, kind of like Farsight selling season passes. Pay $5 for each individual table, or get a pass making all 10 tables available when released at a cost of $3 each. If you want to save money overall, sometimes that means tolerating some bloat you don't need.

Cord cutters are starting to see this first hand. Sure, paying for Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon Prime was way cheaper than cable. There was even money left over to get HBO Now. But now there's CBS All Access, Disney Plus, HBO Max, YouTube Red, Apple has something in the works, and everyone is pulling their content off the other's service, meaning you'll have to pay for all to watch everything. Just like that, same bill as if you'd paid for cable to get the same shows. Well, there are those exclusives, which now you really have to decide if getting the service is worth it just for that one.

So I subscribe to Dish. I can't live without my DVR, I refuse to watch TV on a computer or mobile device, but there are literally only 22 channels I watch and record shows from. And that's a generous 22, as some I literally have just the one show and it only has 10 episodes a year! We got gifted 3 months of Netflix, and I totally would have let that expire except I kept getting hooked on new shows each month. Within a year, there were a bunch of shows that were now my favorite things on TV. So that became just a regular subscription. Meanwhile my wife paid for an Amazon Prime subscription for a year due to how much we were buying online and wanted that 2 day shipping, so I had that video service too. When the year was up, it literally was no big deal to see it go. The shows I watched, I can wait and catch next time we get a 30 day free trial (every November), something I don't think I could do with Netflix now. I'm intrigued by Disney Plus just for the Mandalorian series, but that's it. I own all the Star Wars and Marvel movies, so can watch those whenever I want. I don't care one iota about the back catalog of their animation library. So cheap as it'll be, I doubt I'll hop on that train anytime soon. Maybe once there's 3 or 4 series exclusive to them that I'm interested in, then I'll do a month long binge.

 

[zmcvay]

I think that got away from the point I was making in the quote, which was that with newer trends in video game, smaller games cost *less* than the norm rather than bigger games costing more than the norm ($60 is the norm still, and that's what a big release will cost), so I don't see how your Avengers analogy applies. I don't disagree with the analogy, and expecting moviegoers to shell out $30 a ticket would have been financial suicide, but I think there's more to it.

Which is... there are financial realities involved in the licencing process. Zen has more costs with making a Star Wars or Marvel table than they do making Son of Zeus, Wild West Rampage or Castlestorm. Obviously they expect to make the difference in the increased costs due to licencing by selling more tables due to cross over interest, so the Last Jedi pack and Iron & Steel can cost the same amount. I think we can all agree on that. Hopefully something like Indiana Jones could fall under the same umbrella if they could work something out with Disney, or Monster Bash, maybe even Addams Family or the Terminator tables. But how many of those Williams/Bally titles from the 90's fall under the same rules? Take the Shadow for example. The theme isn't likely to be of much crossover interest as the bigger names, will the table be as financially doable without raising the price of the table? I'm not sure it will, which is likely why Farsight never did it, and I'm not sure Zen would either as raising the price isn't something that would be taken well. Would you be willing to pay more for a desired table with a more obscure licence? I probably would, but I don't know that many of Zen's base would agree. If I'm reading your posts right, your stance is that tables should be the same price regardless of any additional cost in making the table. I would guess that's how most feel, but it's not entirely realistic, so the most likely outcome is that tables like The Shadow, or Johnny Mneumonic have a lower likelihood of ever being made.

I mean, have you noticed how little in the way of licenced video games there even are at this point? We have sports games still, obviously. We had Spider-Man last year, a big Star Wars game coming out later this year supposedly, the odd LEGO game, but for big game releases, there wasn't much else out there in the last year or so other than Freemium junk on mobile (I may have forgotten a game or two, but still, compare it to the amount of licenced games coming out 10-15 years ago). It's just the financial reality now, the licence adds too much in the way of costs, and since they can't realistically sell a licenced game for more than a non-licenced game, they just don't make them. But if you want to adapt a licenced pinball machine from the 90's, what are your other options? Raise prices, or hope it will sell more than normal and be prepared to take a loss otherwise.

But hey, I love being proven wrong, because I can be a bit cynical at times Once we see Zen announce some licenced titles we will have a better idea of what's feasible for them. I'm hoping they can knock that deep catalog out of the park.

As a final note, one thing I would have paid more for is if Zen could have licenced the actual music for the Universal pack. I have a hard time playing any of those tables because all three of those licences are heavily tied into the music. Doesn't bother me so much for Jurassic Park for some reason, but how do you do Back to the Future or JAWS without the music?

 

[Plungemaster]

No, everybody does not win, only you. The person spending the least.

Pfffff what a lame, stupid and selfish answer.

I bought so many pins, on farside, more than once on different platforms, and now i am not gonna do that anymore. Plus you are wrong, cause now i spend nothing, and when i could buy one pin at a time zen would earn. And looking at all other forums and social media i am not alone. So, in fact they are missing income. So it is not only good for me. It is great for tons of players and zen would earn more. And you dont know if i would spend less, maybe i would spend more than someone who only buys 1 pack. Your comment makes zero sense.

It is not good for you, cause yeah well.... i geuss you cant sleep anymore if they did offer single purchases.

But you can continue to attack anyone with a different view if that makes you feel a happy moderator. Fine by me.

 

[wilbers]

Pfffff what a lame, stupid and selfish answer.

I bought so many pins, on farside, more than once on different platforms, and now i am not gonna do that anymore. Plus you are wrong, cause now i spend nothing, and when i could buy one pin at a time zen would earn. And looking at all other forums and social media i am not alone. So, in fact they are missing income. So it is not only good for me. It is great for tons of players and zen would earn more. And you dont know if i would spend less, maybe i would spend more than someone who only buys 1 pack. Your comment makes zero sense.

It is not good for you, cause yeah well.... i geuss you cant sleep anymore if they did offer single purchases.

But you can continue to attack anyone with a different view if that makes you feel a happy moderator. Fine by me.

Maybe you are thinking about it the wrong way. In your case it doesn't make as much sense buying at full price, but when they are 50% off after a few months can't you think of it as buying a single table at full price with 2 others that are 75% off? Even if you aren't that keen on the other 2 wouldn't they still have some value to you. If any happen to be in a pack of 2 at 50% off its even easier, think of paying full price for the table you want, and get another one with it for free.

 

[shutyertrap]

Pfffff what a lame, stupid and selfish answer.

I bought so many pins, on farside, more than once on different platforms, and now i am not gonna do that anymore. Plus you are wrong, cause now i spend nothing, and when i could buy one pin at a time zen would earn. And looking at all other forums and social media i am not alone. So, in fact they are missing income. So it is not only good for me. It is great for tons of players and zen would earn more. And you dont know if i would spend less, maybe i would spend more than someone who only buys 1 pack. Your comment makes zero sense.

It is not good for you, cause yeah well.... i geuss you cant sleep anymore if they did offer single purchases.

But you can continue to attack anyone with a different view if that makes you feel a happy moderator. Fine by me.

Wow, somebody is feeling saucy today!

Let's play a game of hypotheticals, and I'm gonna be exceedingly generous here...

For every 10 Zen customers, I'm going to say 9 are fine with buying in packs of 3. That means Zen earns $90.

Your argument is that you want everyone to pay $4 for each individual table, allowing them to pick and choose. Assuming those 9 individuals still want whats in a pack of 3, now Zen earns $108 plus another $4 from the 10th person.

You stated that everyone wins. Well at first glance, Zen does win, as they earn more money and please the 10th customer. You the 10th customer win because you got what you want. The 9 individuals clearly lose though, as they were just charged 2 dollars more than what was necessary.

Also, Zen in fact does not win. Now they have to have a store entry for every single table, adding a considerable number of SKUs to track. Each store submission on consoles actually costs money, so they are losing out there too. Lastly, it's possible some of those 9 individuals think twice about some tables and choose to not purchase all. All it would take is 4 fewer tables purchased and Zen is back to earning only $90.

Now this is a very simplistic example I am giving, and I'd actually argue the number of people in your situation is far fewer than the 10% demonstrated here. The last single table Zen sold was Ant-Man, and that was a few years back. Zen cannot possibly please everyone, so they are going to please the vast majority, which are people who have no problem buying an entire pack.

I do laugh that you call me selfish, considering your complaint was specifically tailored to you, and you complained about the memory it was taking up on your Switch. Buy a larger memory card. Do you complain to other game developers too for games taking too much memory?

Clearly I do know you are spending less, because you stated you are not purchasing anything since you can't buy individual tables! This is in comparison to the exceedingly large number of people that have downloaded and currently enjoy not just the Williams tables, but all Zen tables. What is your opinion of Zen releasing on the Switch all 19 Star Wars tables in your choice of either a single pack download or physical copy? Will you boycott this too because some of the tables don't interest you?

I sleep just fine, as the financial dealings of any game company are not my concern. I do care about whether I'm getting the best deal, and I feel buying in bundles offers me just that. And as a matter of fact, in our latest BlahCade Pinball Podcast I even mentioned how I wasn't thrilled with Volume 4 at first, but my opinion of White Water and Road Show has grown greatly after putting time into them. That's the beauty of a bundle, giving things a chance you might not otherwise. My hatred of Hurricane has only gotten worse unfortunately.

As stated in earlier posts of this thread, Zen saves money by bundling tables into packs, thus allowing them to price them economically for all. They paid a VERY large sum of money to secure the Williams license, and they stand to earn a much larger return selling EVERY table than if they sold them one by one. Some tables cost more to develop than others, take more resources, but pool them with the ones that cost less, it all evens out. It's basic business 101.

I hope you can appreciate my much longer, detailed, thought out answer that is not in the least selfish but looking out for the group. And for the record, I don't attack differing views, I debate them. The weakness of your argument got bloodied when it fell over with barely a push and hit the ground. The floor is now yours, if you choose to get up off of it, to offer counterpoints. Like what forums and social media sites you are seeing these "tons of players" like yourself.