The future of pinball

[Samandor]

It's great that crowd funding has been employed to enable digitizing of classic tables, but I'm wondering why we haven't seen similar efforts to commission new digital tables designed by the masters of the art? Such commissions could also help finance production of new physical tables. Just wondering...

 

[mudtoe]

The last (failed) Pro Pinball Kickstarter campaign included a potential new table to be co-designed by Pat Lawlor and John Youssi. It's a shame that this effort did not succeed.

http://www.pinballnews.com/news/propinball/

 

[Samandor]

The last (failed) Pro Pinball Kickstarter campaign included a potential new table to be co-designed by Pat Lawlor and John Youssi. It's a shame that this effort did not succeed.

http://www.pinballnews.com/news/propinball/

Perhaps FS would be a better partner for such an endeavor. They have the sales infrastructure and a legion of fans. (I'm new here, so may be missing something, but really love TPA!)

 

[sotie]

FS is only recreating existing tables, not commissioning new digital ones.

 

[grashopper]

FS is only recreating existing tables, not commissioning new digital ones.

Didn't they say they would be open to the idea though after they ran out of good real tables.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Farsight is indeed open to the idea. In fact, it's "always been part of our plan":

http://digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/1587-Round-3-Q-amp-A-With-Bobby-King-Answers

 

[mudtoe]

I think it would be great if a company could launch some sort of virtual/digital pinball program featuring new tables from known designers, but I would guess that the aforementioned Pro Pinball Kickstarter is as close as we are going to get. Unfortunately, the (sizable) goal of $400,000 was not met, and I don't believe that this level of funding is currently achievable. Obviously, the proven designers would need to be paid; the current pricing structure of cellular phone and tablet apps could not possibly provide enough funding to obtain (or retain) the talent. Not to mention that many of the former Bally/Williams development team are now working for Stern, who continue to produce tables.

TLDR; I think it's a great but unsustainable idea.

 

[mudtoe]

Farsight is indeed open to the idea. In fact, it's "always been part of our plan"

Still I wonder if the funding would be available, not to mention any existing "non-compete" contract clauses? I am all for any new digital tables by Lawlor, Ritchie, etc., but how can this happen without major funding or legal wrangling?

 

[Heretic]

for real and virtual pinball to survive the old and not so old guard(aka vp and some newer pin companies) needa start passing on their skills

nobody lives forever after all

 

[gooche77]

Are you okay heretic? I actually understood that entire statement.

 

[Heretic]

lmao, im an imposter

 

[Byte]

I don't know about you guys, but enjoying a table on TPA would actually make me WANT to play the 'real' table.

I'd reach out to Stern to see if FS can become a partner; the combination takes care of licensing issues, Stern doing the actual design work and creating actual tables (with feedback from FS), and FS getting the exclusive (for a number of years) rights to the digital version - perhaps with a 6 month release delay if that makes Stern's customers happy. The advantage for us is that we get access to state-of-the-art tables converted at an unprecedented level of precision.

The advantage for Stern is that they can use TPA's platform to test out multiple configurations of their table in software. I'm sure they must have something like that internally, but they can also source test players from the TPA "elite" players and get valuable information.

 

[sotie]

Farsight is indeed open to the idea. In fact, it's "always been part of our plan":

http://digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/1587-Round-3-Q-amp-A-With-Bobby-King-Answers

Thanks. I forgot about that.

 

[Mark W**a]

The last (failed) Pro Pinball Kickstarter campaign included a potential new table to be co-designed by Pat Lawlor and John Youssi. It's a shame that this effort did not succeed.

http://www.pinballnews.com/news/propinball/

They were asking an absurdly high/unrealistic amount of money...

 

[Robert Hunt]

The next revolution in pinball is going to be driven by 3D printing. At first it will be things like replacement playfield toys and ramps for existing games, but eventually you'll see people producing entirely new games.

 

[ER777]

The next revolution in pinball is going to be driven by 3D printing. At first it will be things like replacement playfield toys and ramps for existing games, but eventually you'll see people producing entirely new games.

It should reduce the cost of mass-producing the various playfield components quite a bit if nothing else. I'm not familiar enough with the overall process of manufacturing pinball machines to know what the breakdown is between R&D costs vs production costs. If its heavy on the production side then 3D printing could make a big difference.

 

[smbhax]

I don't know about you guys, but enjoying a table on TPA would actually make me WANT to play the 'real' table.

I'd reach out to Stern to see if FS can become a partner; the combination takes care of licensing issues, Stern doing the actual design work and creating actual tables (with feedback from FS), and FS getting the exclusive (for a number of years) rights to the digital version - perhaps with a 6 month release delay if that makes Stern's customers happy. The advantage for us is that we get access to state-of-the-art tables converted at an unprecedented level of precision.

The advantage for Stern is that they can use TPA's platform to test out multiple configurations of their table in software. I'm sure they must have something like that internally, but they can also source test players from the TPA "elite" players and get valuable information.

If what we've been hearing for the past year or so about digital tables driving demand for the real ones is true, then it would be to Stern's advantage to have someone (they already *are* partnered with FarSight for TPA, obviously) make a digital version of each new table of theirs as soon as possible--like, even before the real table is out, ideally, but the realities of table manufacturing probably mean that a complete and decently tested digital version couldn't be ready until a little while after the real table was shipping. Then they make money off digital sales, and get more sales for the real table. Win-win! : D

 

[Samandor]

If what we've been hearing for the past year or so about digital tables driving demand for the real ones is true, then it would be to Stern's advantage to have someone (they already *are* partnered with FarSight for TPA, obviously) make a digital version of each new table of theirs as soon as possible--like, even before the real table is out, ideally, but the realities of table manufacturing probably mean that a complete and decently tested digital version couldn't be ready until a little while after the real table was shipping. Then they make money off digital sales, and get more sales for the real table. Win-win! : D

The TPA physics engine seems like a good basis for rapid prototyping, and use as such in a partnership would yield improvements in the physics engine. Seems like a win-win to me.

 

[Worf]

I think I was told by an ex-Williams person that it's mostly production costs - the breakeven cost was usually around a few thousand units (5000+?).

But 3D printing will not revolutionize production - because at even 1000 units, it's more efficient to go injection molding because it currently takes HOURS to 3D print even something small. Something like the Ringmaster from CV would probably take around 3-4 hours to print minimum. Plus a lot of things are reused - targets, flippers, slingshots and other things.

Plus, depending on the material, it may not be as reliable. Cheap 3D printers that use ABS filaments aren't generally very strong because the ABS doesn't bond well with itself unless both are at similar temperatures.

 

[Robert Hunt]

3D printing will not revolutionize production - because at even 1000 units, it's more efficient to go injection molding because it currently takes HOURS to 3D print even something small. Something like the Ringmaster from CV would probably take around 3-4 hours to print minimum. Plus a lot of things are reused - targets, flippers, slingshots and other things.

Plus, depending on the material, it may not be as reliable. Cheap 3D printers that use ABS filaments aren't generally very strong because the ABS doesn't bond well with itself unless both are at similar temperatures.

Who said anything about 1000 units? When you want a printout of some PDF file you've found on the internet, would you print it out a thousand times? I'm talking about home users printing out "Ringmasters" that are based on a personal photograph, or re-imagined ramps that change gameplay. At first, you'll see pin owners and small suppliers using 3D printers to modify existing games and even to simply maintain them. But as capabilities increase, you'll eventually see people using them to create entirely new games.

As for doubts you express about material quality, I can only point you to similar doubts once expressed by photographers about digital imaging versus emulsion based photography. Progress is geometric. I have zero doubt they'll be able to produce materials with nearly ANY desired characteristic in just another few years.

And when that day comes, there won't be much need for production runs of 1000 units.