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Too easy tables (PC version)
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<blockquote data-quote="MagnumXL" data-source="post: 219164" data-attributes="member: 2512"><p>Kristian! PD here; remember me? I agree that the tables are too easy. I'm hitting wizard modes on my first try on most tables. I'm not THAT good after being rusty with the real thing (or VP for that matter which I've only recently played to compare for the first time in years, believe it or not). The Mac versions seem a bit harder here than the Windows version (can run the Windows one virtualized in XP with VMWare Fusion on the same Mac even) and the flipper aim feels a bit better as well, but the lighting is definitely much nicer on the Windows version. Still, I always tried to make the VP versions as hard as the real machine and I knew I was there when my real world scores were similar to my VP scores. Nothing is perfect, but it's clear these tables have settings like Extra Balls out the wazoo that you would NEVER see in the real world (even though you could set them that way). One of the most fun things in the real world is getting good enough to win free games. Here, it defaults to Free Play and that doesn't even let you see how you're doing in that regard, not that it would mean much if the tables are way too easy.</p><p></p><p>As for Black Hole specifically, I played it for the first time in years at a Papa Tournament a couple of years ago in Carnegie, PA and wiped the top score on my first try, so I can't say the real machine was terribly hard to begin with, but it might have been a fluke. I just played RoadShow and toured the country twice without even trying on my first game. NO WAY would that happen on a real machine. Despite having nice animated toys, etc., little things like stand-up targets not moving when you hit them (they should move backward slightly and hit the contact switch, something I made painstaking efforts to recreate in VP) bug me. Firepower's lights lack the 3D layering effect of the clear lenses (clearly just a light up the 2D playfield effect with no real thought given to simulating the depth of the lights and they obviously haven't given any thought to fading light effects for incandescent bulbs that would make the lighting look a lot more real on dark tables). But still, at least I can play Junkyard and it LOOKS almost real. Some tables were too hard to accurately recreate all the toys, etc. in VP. I always wanted to do Pinball Magic, but I couldn't make the skill shot work in VP given it had no support for loop the loops type ramps. There's also no prototype rom options that I can tell so far (e.g. the moving building on Earthshaker) so not reason to throw out VP yet (plus no conversions of Data East games like Jurassic Park or Capcom tables so far). Safe to say I prefer my own Firepower and Centaur tables (lighting is disappointing on Centaur in PA). I think my White Water table looks better lighting wise and ramp smoothness wise. TAF is a bit of a wash in some respects, but theirs is pretty good and of course the 3D camera previews are nifty. I do like their Twilight Zone quite a lot and Cirqus Voltaire is nice. Getaway isn't bad, but the loop shot is WAY too easy and the magnetic accelerator lacks any kind of feeling of "acceleration" on slow entering balls, etc. I miss a lot of my extras on tables like AFM (i.e. the mini-saucer mini-led kit that is available in the real world that I recreated in VP, for example) and prototype options like decals on Cactus Canyon for the bandits and AFM's protype backdrop, etc. let alone my "PD CPU" modes that did crazy stuff like electrocute Uncle Fester sitting in the electric chair in TAF under certain conditions or change the skull in NO FEAR into a giant Pac-Man with a bandit mask.</p><p></p><p>Difficulty wise (other than maximum extra balls everywhere), my theory is that their virtual table "slope" is too shallow. It reminds me of the 4-5 setting on Visual Pinball that made some people's tables way too slow on the return ball and feel both slow and easy. I always liked a more realistic real world slope of 7-8 with fast game play and more difficulty. Basically, if I could play the real tables, I'd take them in a heart beat over any video game versions, but that's just not an option, at least for more than a few tables (expense and storage space). I don't mind strong flippers (new ones are strong). But that means the ball should come screaming back DOWN the table on rebounds (Firepower was NOTORIOUS in the real world for being unforgiving on rebound shots and it didn't usually have that strong of flippers to begin with in most locations. That didn't keep the ball from rebounding at high speed off those stand-up targets.</p><p></p><p>ProPinball had a great balance. It had adjustable table slopes and settings so you could make the tables easier or harder at will. What Pinball Arcade needs is an "ARCADE" mode! Higher table slopes and DEFAULT settings and add a CREDIT key and switch off Free Play so replays mean something. They could really use a better table knocker sound as well, IMO.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sorry guy, but what he's saying IS a virtual fact (yes it's based on individual skill, but we also have the the basis of the real world tables to compare). In case you weren't around for the arcade days of yesterday, arcade games weren't meant to be "easy" or give you extended game play. They were meant to suck quarters out of your pocket. Where pinball gave you a chance was to win free games when you started to improve, by beating replay values and getting on the high score board (plus specials, etc.). That meant an early investment in practice would eventually pay off in very cheap pinball game play (I once played 3.5 hours at the Redondo Beach arcade in California on a Theatre of Magic off 50 cents and eventually quit because I was getting tired of standing there. I left 12 credits on the machine from the one I purchased from wiping the score board, etc. And I'll say here and now THIS Theatre of Magic doesn't AIM right (I can shoot the shots on the real one all day long, not because it's easy, but because I practiced it to death so it was second nature). The right ramp is HARD in the real world while the center ramp is EASY (i.e. I can shoot the center ramp over and over endlessly in the real world and then shoot into the inner loop to lock the ball when I want to. Here, the flippers don't aim right to make that easy center shot (harder), but the right ramp is ridiculously easy to shoot here (if you missed in the real world you probably had a 50/50 chance of the ball heading straight back down the middle). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's great. You're a beginner/casual player and you're enjoying it. I'm no "god of pinball" (although I've been called that because I used to recreate tables in Visual Pinball for 7 years), but I'm "decent" at the real world tables overall and I can typically win free games in short order and get my money's worth if the table is in decent condition. If the idea here is to recreate real world pinball tables like you would find in an arcade, doesn't it follow that the games should PLAY like the real world machines? If I put the MAME arcade emulator on my computer and run Donkey Kong, the nice thing about it is that it's the real world ARCADE version of Donkey Kong with the real world arcade difficulty of Donkey Kong, not the Colecovision version on Difficulty Setting 1 (easy). These machine were meant to eat quarters and so they weren't designed to be "easy". Pinball was nice that it would give you free credits, but it has a learning curve.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sorry, but you're wrong. These are FAR easier than the real arcade versions for most, if not all the tables. Like I said, the payoff in the real world is that you can win games with enough practice. Donkey Kong wasn't REMOTELY "easy" in the arcade. Most people wouldn't last 5 minutes. By your logic, they would get frustrated and stop playing. Many did. Many others kept fishing quarters out of their pockets until they mastered the game and COULD play for 20 minutes or more. That's the challenge of arcade level video games and pinball. It's not supposed to be easy or there would be no challenge and therefore no reason to even bother doing it. If you can shoot free throws all day long, you might make some serious money in the Pros, but it wouldn't be a challenge for you, but then try winning basketball games against other Pro level players. The challenge is back. Here, the only challenge would be in extended (read HOURS) long games to try and beat Tarek Oberdieck's high scores (he's a human robot so don't bother). I just want the same challenge the arcade offered. As it is now, it's more nostalgia than any kind of challenge. It LOOKS like the real game. It smells like the real game. But it doesn't FEEL like the real game. But there's no reason it couldn't with a harder difficulty option (wipe out the overly generous extra balls, increase the table slope to get faster moving balls on rebounds and switch a reward system by using the CREDIT mode). There might be some other tweaks needed, but that would help a lot and that's coming from someone that recreated tables in Visual Pinball for 7 years and had many of the most popular tables out there. And yes, I got TONS of complaints the tables were "hard" from new players. I also got tons of compliments from people that missed playing the real thing and that's because unlike other table authors, I've played the heck out of real world pinball tables. Now for "perfect visuals" these games are hard to beat. They are modeled 3D recreations designs for computers with a lot more CPU/GPU power than 14 years ago when we first started trying to recreate our favorite tables. But game play accuracy should also matter.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MagnumXL, post: 219164, member: 2512"] Kristian! PD here; remember me? I agree that the tables are too easy. I'm hitting wizard modes on my first try on most tables. I'm not THAT good after being rusty with the real thing (or VP for that matter which I've only recently played to compare for the first time in years, believe it or not). The Mac versions seem a bit harder here than the Windows version (can run the Windows one virtualized in XP with VMWare Fusion on the same Mac even) and the flipper aim feels a bit better as well, but the lighting is definitely much nicer on the Windows version. Still, I always tried to make the VP versions as hard as the real machine and I knew I was there when my real world scores were similar to my VP scores. Nothing is perfect, but it's clear these tables have settings like Extra Balls out the wazoo that you would NEVER see in the real world (even though you could set them that way). One of the most fun things in the real world is getting good enough to win free games. Here, it defaults to Free Play and that doesn't even let you see how you're doing in that regard, not that it would mean much if the tables are way too easy. As for Black Hole specifically, I played it for the first time in years at a Papa Tournament a couple of years ago in Carnegie, PA and wiped the top score on my first try, so I can't say the real machine was terribly hard to begin with, but it might have been a fluke. I just played RoadShow and toured the country twice without even trying on my first game. NO WAY would that happen on a real machine. Despite having nice animated toys, etc., little things like stand-up targets not moving when you hit them (they should move backward slightly and hit the contact switch, something I made painstaking efforts to recreate in VP) bug me. Firepower's lights lack the 3D layering effect of the clear lenses (clearly just a light up the 2D playfield effect with no real thought given to simulating the depth of the lights and they obviously haven't given any thought to fading light effects for incandescent bulbs that would make the lighting look a lot more real on dark tables). But still, at least I can play Junkyard and it LOOKS almost real. Some tables were too hard to accurately recreate all the toys, etc. in VP. I always wanted to do Pinball Magic, but I couldn't make the skill shot work in VP given it had no support for loop the loops type ramps. There's also no prototype rom options that I can tell so far (e.g. the moving building on Earthshaker) so not reason to throw out VP yet (plus no conversions of Data East games like Jurassic Park or Capcom tables so far). Safe to say I prefer my own Firepower and Centaur tables (lighting is disappointing on Centaur in PA). I think my White Water table looks better lighting wise and ramp smoothness wise. TAF is a bit of a wash in some respects, but theirs is pretty good and of course the 3D camera previews are nifty. I do like their Twilight Zone quite a lot and Cirqus Voltaire is nice. Getaway isn't bad, but the loop shot is WAY too easy and the magnetic accelerator lacks any kind of feeling of "acceleration" on slow entering balls, etc. I miss a lot of my extras on tables like AFM (i.e. the mini-saucer mini-led kit that is available in the real world that I recreated in VP, for example) and prototype options like decals on Cactus Canyon for the bandits and AFM's protype backdrop, etc. let alone my "PD CPU" modes that did crazy stuff like electrocute Uncle Fester sitting in the electric chair in TAF under certain conditions or change the skull in NO FEAR into a giant Pac-Man with a bandit mask. Difficulty wise (other than maximum extra balls everywhere), my theory is that their virtual table "slope" is too shallow. It reminds me of the 4-5 setting on Visual Pinball that made some people's tables way too slow on the return ball and feel both slow and easy. I always liked a more realistic real world slope of 7-8 with fast game play and more difficulty. Basically, if I could play the real tables, I'd take them in a heart beat over any video game versions, but that's just not an option, at least for more than a few tables (expense and storage space). I don't mind strong flippers (new ones are strong). But that means the ball should come screaming back DOWN the table on rebounds (Firepower was NOTORIOUS in the real world for being unforgiving on rebound shots and it didn't usually have that strong of flippers to begin with in most locations. That didn't keep the ball from rebounding at high speed off those stand-up targets. ProPinball had a great balance. It had adjustable table slopes and settings so you could make the tables easier or harder at will. What Pinball Arcade needs is an "ARCADE" mode! Higher table slopes and DEFAULT settings and add a CREDIT key and switch off Free Play so replays mean something. They could really use a better table knocker sound as well, IMO. Sorry guy, but what he's saying IS a virtual fact (yes it's based on individual skill, but we also have the the basis of the real world tables to compare). In case you weren't around for the arcade days of yesterday, arcade games weren't meant to be "easy" or give you extended game play. They were meant to suck quarters out of your pocket. Where pinball gave you a chance was to win free games when you started to improve, by beating replay values and getting on the high score board (plus specials, etc.). That meant an early investment in practice would eventually pay off in very cheap pinball game play (I once played 3.5 hours at the Redondo Beach arcade in California on a Theatre of Magic off 50 cents and eventually quit because I was getting tired of standing there. I left 12 credits on the machine from the one I purchased from wiping the score board, etc. And I'll say here and now THIS Theatre of Magic doesn't AIM right (I can shoot the shots on the real one all day long, not because it's easy, but because I practiced it to death so it was second nature). The right ramp is HARD in the real world while the center ramp is EASY (i.e. I can shoot the center ramp over and over endlessly in the real world and then shoot into the inner loop to lock the ball when I want to. Here, the flippers don't aim right to make that easy center shot (harder), but the right ramp is ridiculously easy to shoot here (if you missed in the real world you probably had a 50/50 chance of the ball heading straight back down the middle). That's great. You're a beginner/casual player and you're enjoying it. I'm no "god of pinball" (although I've been called that because I used to recreate tables in Visual Pinball for 7 years), but I'm "decent" at the real world tables overall and I can typically win free games in short order and get my money's worth if the table is in decent condition. If the idea here is to recreate real world pinball tables like you would find in an arcade, doesn't it follow that the games should PLAY like the real world machines? If I put the MAME arcade emulator on my computer and run Donkey Kong, the nice thing about it is that it's the real world ARCADE version of Donkey Kong with the real world arcade difficulty of Donkey Kong, not the Colecovision version on Difficulty Setting 1 (easy). These machine were meant to eat quarters and so they weren't designed to be "easy". Pinball was nice that it would give you free credits, but it has a learning curve. Sorry, but you're wrong. These are FAR easier than the real arcade versions for most, if not all the tables. Like I said, the payoff in the real world is that you can win games with enough practice. Donkey Kong wasn't REMOTELY "easy" in the arcade. Most people wouldn't last 5 minutes. By your logic, they would get frustrated and stop playing. Many did. Many others kept fishing quarters out of their pockets until they mastered the game and COULD play for 20 minutes or more. That's the challenge of arcade level video games and pinball. It's not supposed to be easy or there would be no challenge and therefore no reason to even bother doing it. If you can shoot free throws all day long, you might make some serious money in the Pros, but it wouldn't be a challenge for you, but then try winning basketball games against other Pro level players. The challenge is back. Here, the only challenge would be in extended (read HOURS) long games to try and beat Tarek Oberdieck's high scores (he's a human robot so don't bother). I just want the same challenge the arcade offered. As it is now, it's more nostalgia than any kind of challenge. It LOOKS like the real game. It smells like the real game. But it doesn't FEEL like the real game. But there's no reason it couldn't with a harder difficulty option (wipe out the overly generous extra balls, increase the table slope to get faster moving balls on rebounds and switch a reward system by using the CREDIT mode). There might be some other tweaks needed, but that would help a lot and that's coming from someone that recreated tables in Visual Pinball for 7 years and had many of the most popular tables out there. And yes, I got TONS of complaints the tables were "hard" from new players. I also got tons of compliments from people that missed playing the real thing and that's because unlike other table authors, I've played the heck out of real world pinball tables. Now for "perfect visuals" these games are hard to beat. They are modeled 3D recreations designs for computers with a lot more CPU/GPU power than 14 years ago when we first started trying to recreate our favorite tables. But game play accuracy should also matter. [/QUOTE]
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