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<blockquote data-quote="MagnumXL" data-source="post: 219277" data-attributes="member: 2512"><p>Yeah, Ultracade, I almost forgot about that. They used the wrong Sorcerer table (was supposed to be mine, but they ended up using Shiva's table by mistake somehow and he wasn't the least bit pleased about it. It never seemed to go anywhere. I never saw one in real life ever. The only time I ever saw "anything" by these guys was in Phoenix at Castles and Coasters and it was a big video game wall thingy. The idea of a pinball machine that could play multiple pinball games and need almost no maintenance was a good one from a certain perspective, but arcades were dying off and given a choice between a real table and virtual version of it at a bowling alley, I'd play the real one. In fact, I'd pay 3x as much to play the real one as long as it was in good condition. A simulation is better than nothing at home, but if I had the money and space, I'd own about a dozen real tables. Even then, a dozen tables isn't even a tiny slice of the machines that were available for real. Pinball Arcade has what, 62 tables now? I can still count out at least a couple dozen more I'd like to see and plenty more I wouldn't mind and yet more I've never even seen or played. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, pinball in real life isn't that different in some respects. Some shots are easier than others. I can shoot all the shots on the real Theatre of Magic all day long in the real world on a properly maintained machine EXCEPT the right ramp (and the right orbit to a lesser extent). I've shot the center ramp like 20 times in a row before and then hit the inner right loop without missing a beat. You hit the ball at a given point on the flipper and it goes to the same angle every single time. I've always assumed the differences were a result of maybe three things. </p><p></p><p>1> The flipper physics are off somehow on the flippers whereby hitting the ball at a certain point on the virtual flipper does not send the ball to the SAME POINT as the real machine and that point might be correct on some parts of the flipper but wrong on other points. For example, when I flip for the center ramp on the VP version, it ends up closer to the right inner orbit or the standup target. VP always had trouble with aiming "straight up the middle" with settings that "look right" (in terms of where the flippers rest) and the end angle and power. Pinball Arcade seems to have a similar issue, but it doesn't feel as bad for the most part. I still can't repeat the center ramp and since you can't adjust the flipper settings in Pinball Arcade, I don't know if it's something that could be adjusted to aim correctly with small changes or something fundamentally off. I think you can aim that direction, but it's just in a different spot on the flipper. Pro Pinball could aim very well, but there was still something "off" in the game. Ironically, I SUCKED at ProPinball. I never could get that far in Big Race USA (my favorite one of the bunch), let alone Time Shock (ball eater). But obviously, other people like Tarek Oberdieck can adjust to either one (I noticed he was always at the top of the ProPinball games and he's at the top of most of the Pinball Arcade tables). Based on an interview I read with him, he feels the simulated tables and real world pinball are pretty much both right on the money with each other. I know this is NOT the case (or I'd hit the same shots in tables like Theatre of Magic), but clearly if your brain can adapt to the differences, you'll do well regardless. </p><p></p><p>There's something I'd call "flipper resolution" too in the digital world. That is in VP the number of points where you could hit the ball was like a digital stair-step. You could hit points 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 10 and perhaps you could hit points 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, etc., but you COULD NOT NO MATTER WHAT hit points 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc. "directly" off the flippers. It's like the clock-steps of when you could contact the ball or flip the flipper was only available at 0.5 increments. In the real world, there's no such thing (maybe the speed of light or something). The ball moves in a linear fashion along the flipper and you can technically hit ANY POINT on the table with the right timing. This was a big problem in VP as well. I haven't noticed it as much in Pinball Arcade, but I haven't played enough to make a detailed analysis. But these two aspects of the flipper physics alone made the "aiming" feel off in VP. Everything was a matter of trade-offs. You could get some shots to feel right, but others would be off a bit and no matter what you did, you couldn't hit certain in-between shots very well. </p><p></p><p>2> The other issue is the table slope. I know in VP the numbers represented didn't seem to match up with what I saw in real world tables so would sometimes set it even higher (Attack From Mars) to get the desire speed of the ball return to match the local tables I was playing (slope of 9 worked well and I'd never use anything less than 7 in VP even on older tables where it probably should have been lower because it was boring. Real tables can be adjusted to a good range so it does come down to the operator. You COULD set the tables to be extra generous with the extra balls (like in Pinball Arcade) and use slopes of 4-6 degrees and slow things down to be easier, etc. But in my experience playing in various arcades across the country over the years, that doesn't happen too often. Higher slopes speeds up the game play (but you need strong flippers to compensate at a certain point; letting the solenoids wear out will make it unplayable) and faster return balls means less time to react (especially when it's screaming down towards the center) and harder to catch the ball, etc. A lot of people wanted shallow flipper slopes in VP and it was for a reason (i.e. the table was much harder with higher slopes). It could be that in real world situations, you'd find higher slopes specifically set by the operator in order to increase profits, but it also made for a FASTER game (along with strong flippers) and the combination worked well for people with fast reflexes that get bored easily with a lower slope. In Pro Pinball, I didn't see the increased slope affecting the game quite as much as in VP, though. I think there's another factor an that's how much momentum you get "back" in the other direction after hitting a target. In Firepower, the standups actually rebound the ball faster towards the drain. I tried to recreate that in VP, but the PA version feels like it's just hitting a wall and doesn't come back nearly hard enough regardless of slope.</p><p></p><p>Those two factors (aim and ball return speed) things affect my enjoyment more than anything else, but you're right there's also a certain "randomness" to collisions (I'm sure it's really not random, but micro-oddities of moving standup switches, etc.) that will send a ball off in more directions. I think it might be a corollary to the flipper "aim stair-step" "resolution" effect on the flipper end. That is to say, in the digital simulation, there are only so many directions a collision can send the ball to (angle 30 degrees, 31, 32, 33, 34 etc. and no 31.1, 31.2, 31.3). The net effect is that it APPEARS to be less "random" when in fact, it's a lack of RESOLUTION to the physics calculations. In other words, the math needs to go to more decimal places in every part of the collision calculations, etc. It's like the difference between 8-bit color (256 possible colors) and 16-bit color (~16 million possible colors), etc. The higher the resolution used, the more in-between possibilities. That is something that would have had to be fixed in VP itself, but the author seemed to lose interest VERY early on and eventually sold/licensed it to the Ultracade folk. I'm not sure yet where Pinball Arcade stands in "resolution" since I need to play it more (developing tables you tend to shoot the same shots over and over to make sure they're right, but don't think about it as much when you're just "playing" or trying a table out) but given some of the comments on here, there's either a resolution limit or some other factor that is making it rebound/collide in the "same" manner each time. I don't feel like "randomness" is the solution as it's not really random in the real world, it's just high resolution reactions to physics. Randomness might APPEAR to hit that 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 type spots, but it's going AROUND the problem rather than at it. You'll hit those points, but you won't be able to do is consistently since it's "random" now. In the real world, it's actually consistent, it's just that such small timing differences aren't readily apparent to the human eye. There are probably nuances that aren't obvious to physics engines sometimes either. For example, we have 16 day weather forecasts with computer simulations, but they're rarely ACCURATE to even 3 days. The simulation is missing SOMETHING they can't account for in their simulation that is present and has huge effects in the real world. We think we understand how systems work and how physics collisions react from experimentation, etc., but there seems to be something missing on the micro level (let alone quantum weird effects) that has substantial effects on the outcome. I tried to work around whatever it was the best I could and just get the table to feel as close to the real one as I could get it, but none are ever perfect.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MagnumXL, post: 219277, member: 2512"] Yeah, Ultracade, I almost forgot about that. They used the wrong Sorcerer table (was supposed to be mine, but they ended up using Shiva's table by mistake somehow and he wasn't the least bit pleased about it. It never seemed to go anywhere. I never saw one in real life ever. The only time I ever saw "anything" by these guys was in Phoenix at Castles and Coasters and it was a big video game wall thingy. The idea of a pinball machine that could play multiple pinball games and need almost no maintenance was a good one from a certain perspective, but arcades were dying off and given a choice between a real table and virtual version of it at a bowling alley, I'd play the real one. In fact, I'd pay 3x as much to play the real one as long as it was in good condition. A simulation is better than nothing at home, but if I had the money and space, I'd own about a dozen real tables. Even then, a dozen tables isn't even a tiny slice of the machines that were available for real. Pinball Arcade has what, 62 tables now? I can still count out at least a couple dozen more I'd like to see and plenty more I wouldn't mind and yet more I've never even seen or played. Well, pinball in real life isn't that different in some respects. Some shots are easier than others. I can shoot all the shots on the real Theatre of Magic all day long in the real world on a properly maintained machine EXCEPT the right ramp (and the right orbit to a lesser extent). I've shot the center ramp like 20 times in a row before and then hit the inner right loop without missing a beat. You hit the ball at a given point on the flipper and it goes to the same angle every single time. I've always assumed the differences were a result of maybe three things. 1> The flipper physics are off somehow on the flippers whereby hitting the ball at a certain point on the virtual flipper does not send the ball to the SAME POINT as the real machine and that point might be correct on some parts of the flipper but wrong on other points. For example, when I flip for the center ramp on the VP version, it ends up closer to the right inner orbit or the standup target. VP always had trouble with aiming "straight up the middle" with settings that "look right" (in terms of where the flippers rest) and the end angle and power. Pinball Arcade seems to have a similar issue, but it doesn't feel as bad for the most part. I still can't repeat the center ramp and since you can't adjust the flipper settings in Pinball Arcade, I don't know if it's something that could be adjusted to aim correctly with small changes or something fundamentally off. I think you can aim that direction, but it's just in a different spot on the flipper. Pro Pinball could aim very well, but there was still something "off" in the game. Ironically, I SUCKED at ProPinball. I never could get that far in Big Race USA (my favorite one of the bunch), let alone Time Shock (ball eater). But obviously, other people like Tarek Oberdieck can adjust to either one (I noticed he was always at the top of the ProPinball games and he's at the top of most of the Pinball Arcade tables). Based on an interview I read with him, he feels the simulated tables and real world pinball are pretty much both right on the money with each other. I know this is NOT the case (or I'd hit the same shots in tables like Theatre of Magic), but clearly if your brain can adapt to the differences, you'll do well regardless. There's something I'd call "flipper resolution" too in the digital world. That is in VP the number of points where you could hit the ball was like a digital stair-step. You could hit points 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 10 and perhaps you could hit points 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, etc., but you COULD NOT NO MATTER WHAT hit points 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc. "directly" off the flippers. It's like the clock-steps of when you could contact the ball or flip the flipper was only available at 0.5 increments. In the real world, there's no such thing (maybe the speed of light or something). The ball moves in a linear fashion along the flipper and you can technically hit ANY POINT on the table with the right timing. This was a big problem in VP as well. I haven't noticed it as much in Pinball Arcade, but I haven't played enough to make a detailed analysis. But these two aspects of the flipper physics alone made the "aiming" feel off in VP. Everything was a matter of trade-offs. You could get some shots to feel right, but others would be off a bit and no matter what you did, you couldn't hit certain in-between shots very well. 2> The other issue is the table slope. I know in VP the numbers represented didn't seem to match up with what I saw in real world tables so would sometimes set it even higher (Attack From Mars) to get the desire speed of the ball return to match the local tables I was playing (slope of 9 worked well and I'd never use anything less than 7 in VP even on older tables where it probably should have been lower because it was boring. Real tables can be adjusted to a good range so it does come down to the operator. You COULD set the tables to be extra generous with the extra balls (like in Pinball Arcade) and use slopes of 4-6 degrees and slow things down to be easier, etc. But in my experience playing in various arcades across the country over the years, that doesn't happen too often. Higher slopes speeds up the game play (but you need strong flippers to compensate at a certain point; letting the solenoids wear out will make it unplayable) and faster return balls means less time to react (especially when it's screaming down towards the center) and harder to catch the ball, etc. A lot of people wanted shallow flipper slopes in VP and it was for a reason (i.e. the table was much harder with higher slopes). It could be that in real world situations, you'd find higher slopes specifically set by the operator in order to increase profits, but it also made for a FASTER game (along with strong flippers) and the combination worked well for people with fast reflexes that get bored easily with a lower slope. In Pro Pinball, I didn't see the increased slope affecting the game quite as much as in VP, though. I think there's another factor an that's how much momentum you get "back" in the other direction after hitting a target. In Firepower, the standups actually rebound the ball faster towards the drain. I tried to recreate that in VP, but the PA version feels like it's just hitting a wall and doesn't come back nearly hard enough regardless of slope. Those two factors (aim and ball return speed) things affect my enjoyment more than anything else, but you're right there's also a certain "randomness" to collisions (I'm sure it's really not random, but micro-oddities of moving standup switches, etc.) that will send a ball off in more directions. I think it might be a corollary to the flipper "aim stair-step" "resolution" effect on the flipper end. That is to say, in the digital simulation, there are only so many directions a collision can send the ball to (angle 30 degrees, 31, 32, 33, 34 etc. and no 31.1, 31.2, 31.3). The net effect is that it APPEARS to be less "random" when in fact, it's a lack of RESOLUTION to the physics calculations. In other words, the math needs to go to more decimal places in every part of the collision calculations, etc. It's like the difference between 8-bit color (256 possible colors) and 16-bit color (~16 million possible colors), etc. The higher the resolution used, the more in-between possibilities. That is something that would have had to be fixed in VP itself, but the author seemed to lose interest VERY early on and eventually sold/licensed it to the Ultracade folk. I'm not sure yet where Pinball Arcade stands in "resolution" since I need to play it more (developing tables you tend to shoot the same shots over and over to make sure they're right, but don't think about it as much when you're just "playing" or trying a table out) but given some of the comments on here, there's either a resolution limit or some other factor that is making it rebound/collide in the "same" manner each time. I don't feel like "randomness" is the solution as it's not really random in the real world, it's just high resolution reactions to physics. Randomness might APPEAR to hit that 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 type spots, but it's going AROUND the problem rather than at it. You'll hit those points, but you won't be able to do is consistently since it's "random" now. In the real world, it's actually consistent, it's just that such small timing differences aren't readily apparent to the human eye. There are probably nuances that aren't obvious to physics engines sometimes either. For example, we have 16 day weather forecasts with computer simulations, but they're rarely ACCURATE to even 3 days. The simulation is missing SOMETHING they can't account for in their simulation that is present and has huge effects in the real world. We think we understand how systems work and how physics collisions react from experimentation, etc., but there seems to be something missing on the micro level (let alone quantum weird effects) that has substantial effects on the outcome. I tried to work around whatever it was the best I could and just get the table to feel as close to the real one as I could get it, but none are ever perfect. [/QUOTE]
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