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<blockquote data-quote="Zaphod77" data-source="post: 219287" data-attributes="member: 2101"><p>That's a given. not all shots are same width. some shots, like final draw on world cup soccer, or guile on street fighter two, are insanely difficult.</p><p></p><p>But i'm talking about a different effect.</p><p></p><p>One frame can be too soon to make the shot, and the frame after can be too late, and this will cause a shot to be literally impossible. that's my digital pinball complaint. God simulation will work around that as best as they can, at the expense of things being too easy.</p><p></p><p>Yes soem shots are harder then it seems they shoud be in real life. THere are a few effects that cause this.</p><p>1) if the slot requires that the ball start to roll off the flipper before you flip. because the ball is on a curve during the flip, it makes the timing tighter. these tip of the flipper shots are very risky. </p><p>2) because of the angles, the shot is not as wide open as it appears. this is the issue with final draw. an improper slope can make this worse.</p><p></p><p>this is the other problem. one pixel is too early, and one pixel is too late. at certain ball speed,s certain shots are literally impossible. i HATE it when digital pinball games do this. HATE HATE HATE> it cannot be totally eliminated, but i try my best to minimize it. I do my best to make sure all orbits and ramps and everything else is hittable both from a trap and from a ramp feed. There are a few exceptions (vault on a properly set up TAF is near impossible to hit from a trap) but fo the ost part i used this principle to guide me.</p><p></p><p>You are right. it's not randomness in real life, it's chaos. (slight difference in initial conditions making a big difference in results) But we can cheat and get away with in under the right circumstances. TPA correctly randomizes jet action. the jet bumper doesn't settle back inot precisely the same spot it was in before. so there's a difference. what TPA does NOT take into account is that the same thing happens with standups. they deform a bit after each hit, and do not go back exactly to the same spot. we can model this effectively with randomness. The same is true of slingshots.the rubber stretches each time they free, and does not snap back precisely to the same spot.</p><p></p><p>Even solenoids are not immune. the sleeve wears a little. it moves slightly. the ball has a bit more dirt on it. so scoop kickouts are not precisely identical even under ideal conditions either. flippers are less affected though, because of their high power.</p><p></p><p>Properly used a degree of randomness will make the simulation more realistic. </p><p></p><p>As i said above, some thing really are effectively random in real life, and thus can be simulated with actual randomness in pinball sims without being unfair. But if we try applying the same strategy to the flippers, it all falls apart. We CAN, however randomize the inlane feed from a ramp dropoff, though. just a slight difference. but the variation will affect your flipper shots just enough to make hard shots hard.</p><p></p><p>T2 on tpa is the biggest example. every plunge does exactly the same bounces. this does not happen in real life. the rebound off the bank of standups is not that predictable. it's angle is a bit random in real life.</p><p></p><p>inn real life, frame rate and resolution are infinite. we an always add more resolution, but enough framerate to accurately model real world pinball is a very tall order.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zaphod77, post: 219287, member: 2101"] That's a given. not all shots are same width. some shots, like final draw on world cup soccer, or guile on street fighter two, are insanely difficult. But i'm talking about a different effect. One frame can be too soon to make the shot, and the frame after can be too late, and this will cause a shot to be literally impossible. that's my digital pinball complaint. God simulation will work around that as best as they can, at the expense of things being too easy. Yes soem shots are harder then it seems they shoud be in real life. THere are a few effects that cause this. 1) if the slot requires that the ball start to roll off the flipper before you flip. because the ball is on a curve during the flip, it makes the timing tighter. these tip of the flipper shots are very risky. 2) because of the angles, the shot is not as wide open as it appears. this is the issue with final draw. an improper slope can make this worse. this is the other problem. one pixel is too early, and one pixel is too late. at certain ball speed,s certain shots are literally impossible. i HATE it when digital pinball games do this. HATE HATE HATE> it cannot be totally eliminated, but i try my best to minimize it. I do my best to make sure all orbits and ramps and everything else is hittable both from a trap and from a ramp feed. There are a few exceptions (vault on a properly set up TAF is near impossible to hit from a trap) but fo the ost part i used this principle to guide me. You are right. it's not randomness in real life, it's chaos. (slight difference in initial conditions making a big difference in results) But we can cheat and get away with in under the right circumstances. TPA correctly randomizes jet action. the jet bumper doesn't settle back inot precisely the same spot it was in before. so there's a difference. what TPA does NOT take into account is that the same thing happens with standups. they deform a bit after each hit, and do not go back exactly to the same spot. we can model this effectively with randomness. The same is true of slingshots.the rubber stretches each time they free, and does not snap back precisely to the same spot. Even solenoids are not immune. the sleeve wears a little. it moves slightly. the ball has a bit more dirt on it. so scoop kickouts are not precisely identical even under ideal conditions either. flippers are less affected though, because of their high power. Properly used a degree of randomness will make the simulation more realistic. As i said above, some thing really are effectively random in real life, and thus can be simulated with actual randomness in pinball sims without being unfair. But if we try applying the same strategy to the flippers, it all falls apart. We CAN, however randomize the inlane feed from a ramp dropoff, though. just a slight difference. but the variation will affect your flipper shots just enough to make hard shots hard. T2 on tpa is the biggest example. every plunge does exactly the same bounces. this does not happen in real life. the rebound off the bank of standups is not that predictable. it's angle is a bit random in real life. inn real life, frame rate and resolution are infinite. we an always add more resolution, but enough framerate to accurately model real world pinball is a very tall order. [/QUOTE]
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