Bug Whitewater Audio Issues

[mystman12]

Just got table pack 4, and unfortunately the audio issues I noticed from the streams are still present.

The most noticeable issue is that the cymbals in the music sound really weird, almost like they're at a different pitch or something. It sounds really annoying. The music sounds correct in the YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNV1WO_QxCI Furthermore, a lot of the music sounds super pitchy, and a lot of the drums and things sound like they're off-beat. Compare any track with the real game (Check out the Chris Granner archives for all the music: http://www.cgmusic.net/archives.html) and you'll notice a lot of the FX3 versions just sound awful in comparison.

There are other issues with other sounds produced by the FM Synth chip as well. All the sounds when going through in-lanes/out-lanes and raising the river class, for example, are messed up.

Here's the sound effect for advancing RIVER through an in/outlane for example. You'll notice that the FX3 version sounds like it's using an entirely different waveform.

Original: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajq7oQLp1JsOlJRy3JenQMkDBnuZzg

FX3: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajq7oQLp1JsOlJRxFVTX-rFXgiVWNQ

Another example is the whirlpool sound. The sampled audio (Big Foot and the water sounds) sounds great, but the FM synth stuff (The rising tone) sounds horribly off pitch.

Again, here's the original: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajq7oQLp1JsOlJRzNxm15fZEn4eAyg

And here's the FX3 version (I wasn't able to isolate the FM synth from the Big Foot and water sounds): https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajq7oQLp1JsOlJR0FNvNs_v57WB8WA

That's not all, there are a lot of other sounds that are completely broken. Some have literally made me cringe because of how horrible they sound. I'm no audiophile, but I'm familiar enough with these games to know when something isn't right, and something definitely isn't right here.

What I find really strange about this is games with the same chipset (Black Rose, Party Zone, Fish Tales) have been done before and those games sound about perfect (Figures that the game with my most favorite sound package in pinball is the first to have issues like this. ). Obviously I'm not working on the game, so this might not be the cause of the issue, but it seems to me like something with the emulator is messed up.

I hope I'm not coming off too harsh, but Whitewater is one of my favorite pinball machines, and everything else about the PBFX3 version is awesome! I just want to see it perfected. To the people working at Zen, thanks for all the hard work!

My PC stats:
Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit (10.0, Build 17134)
Processor: Intel Core i7-7820X CPU @ 3.60GHz (16 CPUs)
Memory: 65536MB RAM
DirectX Version: DirectX 12

 

[trash80]

Yes it is very noticeable, the FX3 version of the ROM is running too fast and so all the chipset based audio is pitched up a few semitones and the tempos are increased. This seems like an emulation issue, but it may be a purposeful design choice to achieve an overall locked simulation at 60 fps. I'm curious to see feedback from the Zen team, and knowing who all was in the beta, I'm surprised this wasn't brought to attention immediately by P45b.

 

[Pinballwiz45b]

Yes it is very noticeable, the FX3 version of the ROM is running too fast and so all the chipset based audio is pitched up a few semitones and the tempos are increased. This seems like an emulation issue, but it may be a purposeful design choice to achieve an overall locked simulation at 60 fps. I'm curious to see feedback from the Zen team, and knowing who all was in the beta, I'm surprised this wasn't brought to attention immediately by P45b.

Oh I was already completely aware. I reported it as always, but it seemed like nothing was done.

I know the main music portion is fine, but I knew something was off with those cymbals. I also did notice those sound issues OP mentioned.

 

[McLovin]

Thanks guys, we'll see what we can do.

 

[kimkom]

This sounds like the de-sync audio/emulation issue that we have reported several times now. It’s not specific to this table but is common across all WMS tables.

It is very noticeable when playing at 144Hz. I normally play at 120Hz and while it’s not as bad, the problem is definitely still there.

Zen improved the issue a little during the beta but never solved the problem entirely.

 

[jrolson]

Hurricane also has scratchy sounds on PS4... also a looping nudge sound bug.

 

[strells]

The audio is weird on Switch as well. I know that table's audio by heart so it is very strange to hear it so different.

 

[kimkom]

Just got table pack 4, and unfortunately the audio issues I noticed from the streams are still present.

The most noticeable issue is that the cymbals in the music sound really weird, almost like they're at a different pitch or something. It sounds really annoying. The music sounds correct in the Yule Tide video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNV1WO_QxCI Furthermore, a lot of the music sounds super pitchy, and a lot of the drums and things sound like they're off-beat. Compare any track with the real game (Check out the Chris Granner archives for all the music: http://www.cgmusic.net/archives.html) and you'll notice a lot of the FX3 versions just sound awful in comparison.

There are other issues with other sounds produced by the FM Synth chip as well. All the sounds when going through in-lanes/out-lanes and raising the river class, for example, are messed up.

Here's the sound effect for advancing RIVER through an in/outlane for example. You'll notice that the FX3 version sounds like it's using an entirely different waveform.

Original: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajq7oQLp1JsOlJRy3JenQMkDBnuZzg

FX3: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajq7oQLp1JsOlJRxFVTX-rFXgiVWNQ

Another example is the whirlpool sound. The sampled audio (Big Foot and the water sounds) sounds great, but the FM synth stuff (The rising tone) sounds horribly off pitch.

Again, here's the original: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajq7oQLp1JsOlJRzNxm15fZEn4eAyg

And here's the FX3 version (I wasn't able to isolate the FM synth from the Big Foot and water sounds): https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajq7oQLp1JsOlJR0FNvNs_v57WB8WA

That's not all, there are a lot of other sounds that are completely broken. Some have literally made me cringe because of how horrible they sound. I'm no audiophile, but I'm familiar enough with these games to know when something isn't right, and something definitely isn't right here.

What I find really strange about this is games with the same chipset (Black Rose, Party Zone, Fish Tales) have been done before and those games sound about perfect (Figures that the game with my most favorite sound package in pinball is the first to have issues like this. ). Obviously I'm not working on the game, so this might not be the cause of the issue, but it seems to me like something with the emulator is messed up.

I hope I'm not coming off too harsh, but Whitewater is one of my favorite pinball machines, and everything else about the PBFX3 version is awesome! I just want to see it perfected. To the people working at Zen, thanks for all the hard work!

My PC stats:
Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit (10.0, Build 17134)
Processor: Intel Core i7-7820X CPU @ 3.60GHz (16 CPUs)
Memory: 65536MB RAM
DirectX Version: DirectX 12

I couldn't help but think the main music track during the attract sequence was also running too fast. Is this also what you are hearing mystman?

 

[mystman12]

No, the music you hear before starting the game seems to be a non-emulated recording of the Whirlpool multiball theme, and it sounds correct to me. It's once you start a game and the fully emulated audio kicks in that the issues begin.

I don't think there's any issues with the music playing to fast or too slow, I think it's just that some of the "instruments" in the music and sound either play at the wrong pitch or seem to be using entirely different waveforms (Although it's possible the waveforms are correct, but are just not playing at the correct rate).

 

[Klopek]

Here's a video I recorded of The Getaway ages ago. Notice how high pitch the 'Extra Ball is Lit' ringer is compared to the real thing? Is this perhaps all part of the same issue ?

Zen

Real
https://youtu.be/FjVAHirETxs?t=368

TPA
https://youtu.be/LMXVzGvziDo?t=1446

Another video I made of the sirens 'losing their tracking':
https://youtu.be/DL-Cey1co5w

 

[MBeeching]

I couldn't help but think the main music track during the attract sequence was also running too fast.

The attract music is a fairly close match to the version on CGMusic though I don't think the quality is as satisfying. Comparing the two Zen's sounds a bit muffled and lacks bite, though to be fair CG's version does make reference to DSP enhancements. For those interested the attract is encoded as Ogg Vorbis / 44.1kHz / VBR 73 Kbps.

The actual table music is handled differently and uses a sound ROM container, approx 1.5mb in this case. That struck me as rather small though it's not dissimilar to Zen's other WMS tables which sound reasonable. The originals aren't particularly large either but the music was clearly designed for playback on specific hardware, it would be great to hear how Zen approached this task but find it doubtful they'd be willing to disclose the full gory details.

White Water's cymbals do sound particularly slushy but I can't decide whether it's a heavily compressed sample sourced from the original hardware or completely different instrumentation. I'd have no objections to an increased audio budget if it reduces compression and improves sample quality so it more closely emulates the originals, even doubling it would only slightly increase the installation footprint.

 

[mystman12]

I don't know for sure, but the cymbals sound like they're done using FM Synth to me, unlike most of the other percussion which is clearly sampled. I think that would make sense given that all the other audio samples (Like the rest of the percussion) sound fine.

And yeah, the CG Archives are higher quality than what the actual machines output, but they're still a good reference to how everything should sound, what pitch things should be, etc.

 

[MBeeching]

I've been digging a little deeper and the tables do appear to incorporate WPC hardware emulation, each file references the original system board. In White Water's case it's the WPC Fliptronics II and there are independent volume controls (YM/HC/DAC) which match up with the Yamaha YM2151, Harris HC55536 and DAC.

I'd agree with Mystman that the problem lies with the Yamaha synth, we're hearing original sounds but Granner's frequency modulation techniques are sometimes proving difficult to emulate. Granner does mention White Water here and refers to those 'interactive' changes to pitch and tempo.

Interestingly Party Zone appears to have been released on two different boards, Zen used the revised Fliptronics I version rather than the original WPC Dot Matrix. As such Hurricane is the only table currently emulating that board.

Whilst investigating I did stumble across this excellent Chris Granner interview, well worth a listen!

 

[kimkom]

I've been digging a little deeper and the tables do appear to incorporate WPC hardware emulation, each file references the original system board. In White Water's case it's the WPC Fliptronics II and there are independent volume controls (YM/HC/DAC) which match up with the Yamaha YM2151, Harris HC55536 and DAC.

I'd agree with Mystman that the problem lies with the Yamaha synth, we're hearing original sounds but Granner's frequency modulation techniques are sometimes proving difficult to emulate. Granner does mention White Water here and refers to those 'interactive' changes to pitch and tempo.

Interestingly Party Zone appears to have been released on two different boards, Zen used the revised Fliptronics I version rather than the original WPC Dot Matrix. As such Hurricane is the only table currently emulating that board.

Whilst investigating I did stumble across this excellent Chris Granner interview, well worth a listen!

That's some fine detective work right there! Very interesting info and interview, many thanks.