Why Are Premier So Hated By So Many Pinheads?

[CC13]

In my short time as a pinball fan, one of the most consistent things I've noticed is that almost nobody has anything good to say about Premier-era Gottlieb. Stargate is widely loved and a few others (mainly Big Hurt, Class of 1812, Freddy, Lights, Camera, Action! and Street Fighter II) have their defenders, but almost everything else is considered, at best, filler. I've seen a substantial amount of footage of many Premier pins and they really don't look that bad–they usually don't push the envelope like WMS did, but they seem like perfectly enjoyable games to me. Why do most people seem to feel differently?

 

[Mark W**a]

I watched all the videos in the Gottlieb PAF poll and I wasn't feeling any of them. They just seem generic, uninspired, lackluster compared to Bally/Williams, and even DE/Sega which personally I'm not a big fan of those either.

That goes for even the more popular ones, like Class of 1812 and Haunted House. The entire lineup just drew a big "meh" from me. I decided to not even vote.

I think at the time most of the pinball "talent" was at Bally/Williams, and DE/Sega. They were the ones pushing the envelope, I feel.

Then you have Capcom, whom while only did a handful of tables, they were of outstanding quality in my opinion.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Williams/Bally machines were just better designed, with better themes, and were better made.

Late-era Gottlieb pins were up against a competitor on top of its game. They had to compete against Whirlwind, FunHouse, Terminator 2, Creature from the Black Lagoon, Addams Family, The Getaway, Twilight Zone, ST:TNG, Whitewater, Dracula and Fish Tales. Premier's best tables weren't objectively bad per se, but against the Williams onslaught they looked and played like also-rans.

A few late-era Gottliebs just arrived at CP Pinball last month, and while they're not horrible, they just feel really lackluster compared to my other options.

 

[Bowflex]

I think the lack of variety in design. If you look at certain designers, there are common elements but changes that distinguish each table. Gottlieb tended to just reuse the same designs with minor tweaks. It's also apparent that they were not willing to pony up money for licenses so they made cheap knock off themes that came off cheesy and poorly executed. Some of their games are definitely fun and they did innovate a few things in the ss era. On the other hand they were leaders of the industry during the EM period and many of the best tables from that era are by them. I would venture to say the vast majority.

 

[Carl Spiby]

Flippers feel funny on Gottliebs.

 

[Pinballfan69]

I watched all the videos in the Gottlieb PAF poll and I wasn't feeling any of them. They just seem generic, uninspired, lackluster compared to Bally/Williams, and even DE/Sega which personally I'm not a big fan of those either.

Agree I really looked into those tables from other sources like Pinside. There are other vids out there showing better gameplay. But those tables on the poll didn't really grab me. I know most of us have not had a chance to play the games in real life, but these days it's mostly about theme and things that look interesting. Gottlieb seemed to be an old fashioned pinball distributor. Many of their tables as well as the EM tables in poll 1, I didn't vote for. It's all personal preference though. There are many tables on the williams poll that I have never seen or heard of and they just look so much more engaging. Tables like Bad Catz, F-14 tomcat, road show and others. They just looked so cool.

 

[superballs]

Super Mario Bros was awesome. Good luck getting that on a non-N system though (besides VP).

 

[Punisher]

Super Mario Bros was awesome. Good luck getting that on a non-N system though (besides VP).

Yeah, that pin brings back a ton of nostalgia for me. Too bad I can only play it on VP, and even so, the game's multiball in that vpt is game-ending.

 

[CC13]

Super Mario Bros was awesome. Good luck getting that on a non-N system though (besides VP).

Actually, I'm not so sure—there were some third-party Mario spinoff titles on PCs in the early '90s and The Pokemon Company, a Nintendo subsidiary, released a Pokedex app on iOS a few months back. Thus, I believe that Nintendo could at least be talked into allowing Gottlieb's Super Mario Bros. on Android, iOS and PCs (PS4 and Xbone are probably non-starters, though). There's quite a bit of difference between a mainline Super Mario title appearing on a non-Nintendo system and a licensed Mario product from the early '90s doing the same, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Nintendo were at least willing to talk (whether the license turns out to be worth the trouble is another matter).

 

[dagwood]

So what's wrong with Cueball Wizard?

 

[superballs]

Actually, I'm not so sure—there were some third-party Mario spinoff titles on PCs in the early '90s and The Pokemon Company, a Nintendo subsidiary, released a Pokedex app on iOS a few months back. Thus, I believe that Nintendo could at least be talked into allowing Gottlieb's Super Mario Bros. on Android, iOS and PCs (PS4 and Xbone are probably non-starters, though). There's quite a bit of difference between a mainline Super Mario title appearing on a non-Nintendo system and a licensed Mario product from the early '90s doing the same, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Nintendo were at least willing to talk (whether the license turns out to be worth the trouble is another matter).

It's very possible and I would hate to discount it.

 

[shutyertrap]

I'm one of those that hate these very pins. I'm also a hater of most Data East tables. This all stems from real world playing of them. Watching a video or playing a digital version of one of these will not even come close to telling you the whole story. As others have pointed out, it's in the build quality, the design (or lack thereof), and mechanics.

As best I can explain it, it's Lego vs Mega Blocks. They may interlock the same, but the plastic feels different, the way they snap together feels different, even the way the instructions are drawn...Lego just wins, and handily so, every time.

I think if you took the worst example of a Bally/Williams table (I know Popeye would be many people's first pick, mine would be Bugs Bunny), and compared that to the best example of a Gottlieb Premier, it'd be close. Compare it now to a B/W best? Not even in the same league.

 

[Clawhammer]

For me, it's the feel of the flippers. The ball comes to a trap too easily, they are too steep, and you can't effectively dead bounce. In terms of design and rules, they don't live up to comparable games of the era either. I think a lot of the hate has to do with the creative zenith of Bally/Williams that was occurring and competing simultaneously with the production of many DE, Sega, and Premier/Gottlieb games. With B/W setting such a high bar for quality in the 90s, history hasn't treated DMD-era Gottlieb well.

 

[CC13]

I'm one of those that hate these very pins. I'm also a hater of most Data East tables. This all stems from real world playing of them. Watching a video or playing a digital version of one of these will not even come close to telling you the whole story. As others have pointed out, it's in the build quality, the design (or lack thereof), and mechanics.

As best I can explain it, it's Lego vs Mega Blocks. They may interlock the same, but the plastic feels different, the way they snap together feels different, even the way the instructions are drawn...Lego just wins, and handily so, every time.

I think if you took the worst example of a Bally/Williams table (I know Popeye would be many people's first pick, mine would be Bugs Bunny), and compared that to the best example of a Gottlieb Premier, it'd be close. Compare it now to a B/W best? Not even in the same league.

Hrm? Personally, I think Stargate easily trounces either BBBB or Popeye in every possible way. In fact, I'd wager that I would play almost any Premier over those two decks without any hesitation and that Premier's best handily outclass the mid-level B/W decks (i.e., Hurricane, Junkyard, Party Zone, etc.). In part, this is because I naturally favor a catch-and-shoot play style over a more flow-based approach, but I also legitimately think that Stargate is better than either of the tables you presented and one of the best of the DMD era (only CV, TAF, TZ and perhaps Safe Cracker & ST:TNG inarguably trump it). I can certainly see Stargate's flaws (Eye of Ra is a little TOO easy to get to, the dots aren't as lively as on most B/W decks, Save Sari is a complete waste of space and Heaven help you if the flippers aren't in tip-top condition), but the Glidercraft toy is way cool, the sound quality is much better than I had expected, the rules have depth to spare and the modes are a multiball hound's dream come true. I don't know what Gottlieb did differently here, but it works and a few more machines like this one might have saved them from folding in 1996.

 

[superballs]

I'm going to say it again. Super Mario World is awesome

 

[Jeff Strong]

The cool thing about bringing Premier, Data East, or Stern pins to TPA is that it doesn't matter if the real-world build-quality is cheaper than Williams/Bally. That makes no difference in a digital recreation. All that matters is the playfield design and fun factor, and some of these pins are quite good in that regard.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

The cool thing about bringing Premier, Data East, or Stern pins to TPA is that it doesn't matter if the real-world build-quality is cheaper than Williams/Bally. That makes no difference in a digital recreation. All that matters is the playfield design and fun factor, and some of these pins are quite good in that regard.

It might still affect some of it. For example, Data East machines were notorious for having lazy bumpers (and then after enough people complained, their later machines were notorious for having ridiculously strong bumpers). So if FarSight tuned to match their table, I assume it would inherit the design flaws as well.

 

[Jeff Strong]

It might still affect some of it. For example, Data East machines were notorious for having lazy bumpers (and then after enough people complained, their later machines were notorious for having ridiculously strong bumpers). So if FarSight tuned to match their table, I assume it would inherit the design flaws as well.

As long as the flippers don't start crapping out after a few games, I'm good with the rest. I play Data East pins quite a bit since they're the most common machines around here and the bumpers are fine. It's the flippers that are usually in rough shape, but that wouldn't be an issue in TPA.

 

[netizen]

their later machines were notorious for having ridiculously strong bumpers). So if FarSight tuned to match their table, I assume it would inherit the design flaws as well.

*cough cough* Godzilla and Johnny Mnemonic

 

[shutyertrap]

Well, real world is why I have no love for 'em. I did play quite a few in VP, and yes certain issues stop being issues in that realm. Nothing will help with hideous art or poor layout though!