Williams and Bally are overrated

[Zacattack99]

Thinking about the current situation, the time it took to realize this and looking at Williams and Bally’s time in the industry compared to Gottlieb and Stern, I came to this realization:

despite being legendary and cherished, the number of tables being omitted really says that the two brands in question are just overrated. Hopefully with the emphasis on Gottlieb and Stern going forward will bring light on more obscure tables and those that laid the groundwork for modern pinball historically; here are a few examples;

Checkpoint (1991, Data East/Stern): 1st game to make use of a DMD.

Humpty Dumpty (1947, Gottlieb): the 1st game to use flippers on a EM machine.

(Personal Request) Caveman (Gottlieb, 1982) noteworthy for it’s use of a video screen in it’s playfield.

Baffle Ball (1930, Gottlieb) the 1st successful table on the market designed by founder David Gottlieb. The table became so popular, that it lead Bally’s existence as a pinball manufacturer with their clone ‘Ballyhoo’.

There is also the tables that were made by Chicago Coin; which is what we know as Stern Pinball Inc. today.

I messaged this to TPA on facebook, this to me doesn’t really mean the end of TPA, any opinion on this opinion people?

 

[Gorgias32]

Well, while I agree that there are a lot of really fun Gottlieb EM games out there, the 90s Bally and Williams games are beloved because they perfected and elevated everything about pinball - better shots, rules, storytelling. Modern Sterns are definitely right up there with the best Bally and Williams tables though.

 

[Zacattack99]

Did you ever wonder about those Gottlieb EMs or something like Baffle Ball?

 

[shutyertrap]

They are overrated? Seriously? No Stern, JJP, or any other pinball of today would be what it is if not for Bally/Williams. Pinball would have died off to video games completely in the mid 80's if not for Williams. If you are a fan of EMs, fantastic and I agree that Gottlieb ruled the roost with those. The second you step into Solid State machines though, there is no denying who the king was. Williams and Bally deserve every bit of praise heaped on them.

As for the end of TPA, FarSight has no such plans. They are going to continue with Stern and Gottlieb while possibly adding Capcom to the mix.

 

[Johni3w6]

Heck no, all those System 11 Tables. Which makes me kind of sad now because, we'll never have them all.

 

[shutyertrap]

Heck no, all those System 11 Tables. Which makes me kind of sad now because, we'll never have them all.

Agree. Had the game been nothing but every System 11 table I would have been happy.

 

[Johni3w6]

Agree. Had the game been nothing but every System 11 table I would have been happy.

Exactly, same here.

They were so close, part of me is still kind of irritated that some of those tables shouldn't of had a big license fee and should have been brought out.


Tried to reply on Taptalk and evidently it's a constant Network error.

 

[TeamScience]

I wouldn't say that Williams/Bally tables are overrated, I think it's more accurate to say that non Williams/Bally tables are underrated. There are plenty of good Data East, Stern, and Gottlieb tables I'd like to see offered eventually. The Who's Tommy is at the top of my wish list.

 

[shutyertrap]

Exactly, same here.

They were so close, part of me is still kind of irritated that some of those tables shouldn't of had a big license fee and should have been brought out.


Tried to reply on Taptalk and evidently it's a constant Network error.

This site has switched over to a new URL, digitalpinballfans.com and that is supposed to be redirected to from the old. TapaTalk may not be doing this yet.

 

[Citizen]

despite being legendary and cherished, the number of tables being omitted really says that the two brands in question are just overrated.

How does that logic follow, though? Purely because there were large number of them, they must be overrated? Wouldn't it make more sense to examine whether or not including a large number of them was justified? In which case, throw my vote in as one of the people who feels it was.

Hopefully with the emphasis on Gottlieb and Stern going forward will bring light on more obscure tables and those that laid the groundwork for modern pinball historically

That would be fine. As long as they're good tables. FarSight has said they want to aim for 5 tables per year now. That doesn't leave any extra room to stuff the game full of games that are only noteworthy for having been the first to feature/accomplish this or that.

For example:

Checkpoint (1991, Data East/Stern): 1st game to make use of a DMD.

This is also a mindless, repetitive chore of a game that doesn't belong anywhere near TPA. And I say this as a huge Data East fan.

Don't get me wrong, museum pieces and historical preservation are great and all, but with 5 tables per year, I'd personally rather just have good tables, regardless of whether they're historically significant or not, or obscure or mainstream.

And let's just be realistic here for a second; most of the new content is probably going to be modern Stern. Which I have no problem with, but again, if we also want to occasionally get a decent Gottlieb or Data East table, that doesn't leave much room for games that are historically significant but not actually fun to play.

Humpty Dumpty (1947, Gottlieb): the 1st game to use flippers on a EM machine

Baffle Ball (1930, Gottlieb) the 1st successful table on the market designed by founder David Gottlieb. The table became so popular, that it lead Bally’s existence as a pinball manufacturer with their clone ‘Ballyhoo’.

Incredibly important games, yes. That many pinball fans are indeed aware of. But how many people do you think will find these tables fun for repeated play? We had the 1932 Play-Boy game in Gottlieb Collection. It didn't make it into TPA, yet you don't see people asking for it. There's a reason for that.

There is also the tables that were made by Chicago Coin; which is what we know as Stern Pinball Inc. today.

Stern Inc. prefers to pretend Chicago Coin doesn't exist, even though they like to brag about getting into pinball in 1931 (when Chicago Coin began), even though they didn't actually get into pinball with their own company until 1977 (although Sam was president of Williams in the 60s), when the Sterns formed a new company to purchase Chicago Coin's assets. This idea people have that Chicago Coin just became Stern Electronics isn't really correct. They were never the same company, which is why the Sterns didn't have to pay CC's debts.

But yeah, I don't expect to see any CC games, because Stern only cares about CC for the 1931 date. Nothing else. Even though getting a game like CC's The Thing would be kinda cool.

I messaged this to TPA on facebook, this to me doesn’t really mean the end of TPA, any opinion on this opinion people?

I also don't feel it's the end of TPA. I do feel we're past the prime of TPA, but there are certainly many good tables they could still add. I'm hopeful that at some point down the road, they'll secure the Capcom license. That would bring some quality lesser known tables into the game.

 

[Blkthorne]

Would have to disagree, my weekly wish list I used to put on Facebook had a ton more Bally/Williams' tables compared to EM's/Stern Electronics/Gottlieb combined. Though I was rather sad when Mike Lindsley said they were going to focus on Gottlieb Premiers with tables like Joker Poker, Spirit, Robo-War, Alien Star, Sinbad, Devil's Dare, Count-Down and Cleopatra, considered some of Gottlieb's top tables for early SS, not in TPA. Plus Flight 2000 is the only Stern Electronics' table in TPA, with tables like Quicksilver, Seawitch, Catacomb, Star Gazer, Stingray, Nine Ball, Stars, Meteor, Big Game, Galaxy, Dracula, Magic, Cheetah and Hot Hand still out there to choose from.

 

[Plungemaster]

Lol.

 

[Heretic]

Genesis

 

[Jeff Strong]

Overrated? Hillarious.

 

[Pinballwiz45b]

If anything, it's the Sterns and Gottliebs that are underrated. Throughout my childhood, I've played a grand total of ONE Bally, and that's Corvette.

The rest: Sterns and Gottliebs. Point being, I'm happy about what we got for the past 6 years in regards to Bally/Williams. Now let's see some care shown to other manufacturers.

EDIT: I also grew up totally thinking like the thread title. The Williams Collection changed my mind.

 

[Worf]

Part of the reason is WIlliams/Bally tables were designed for both the operators and players in mind. One popular thing was switch compensation - a Williams/Bally table that has a broken switch (which happens often, those things get smashed by balls) will often compensate for it - so even if the table is broken, you can still have fun. Others like Sega/Data East don't, so when a critical switch breaks, the game is effectively broken. It's not something you want to find after dumping your hard earned coins into the machine and finding the main modes don't work anymore.

Some of the later Williams/Bally tables (post 1997 or so) had forgiveness timers - so the ball saver just expires while the ball heads SDTM. The game will often award it even though the light went off assuming the outcome was inevitable despite the ball saver expiry.

Crap happens, but if a table feels "bad" then it gets less plays. One of my favorite non-Williams/Bally machines was X-Files, but it never felt as good. It always felt cheap - like it was made out of cheaper materials. You felt it when you played. X-Files was fine, but the machine just felt like it was going to fall apart.

 

[Kolchak357]

Agree. Had the game been nothing but every System 11 table I would have been happy.

If anything, those system 11 pins are underrated.



Worf, you totally nailed it on X-Files.

 

[wolfson]

I love my EMs , but I count all my tables the same , I`m like Blkthorne , there some really good Sterns from the 1970s & 1980s plus EMs and all the others . I`m looking forward to all our new tables in the future !!!

 

[funchords]

Some of the later Williams/Bally tables (post 1997 or so) had forgiveness timers - so the ball saver just expires while the ball heads SDTM. The game will often award it even though the light went off assuming the outcome was inevitable despite the ball saver expiry.

Love this. It's very thoughtfully designed.

 

[Silverball67]

Williams/Bally overrated? That´s a bloody joke. If at all, Gottlieb tables are overrated i.m.o. . There are just a short hand full of Gottlieb-tables I like in some way. Williams / Bally-tables represent 90 % of my favorite tables in TPA. Compared to several ranking lists, like "https://pinside.com/pinball/top-100", I´m not the only one with this opinion. Gottlieb? No way, I´m only interested in Stern tables like L.o.t.r., but I´m highly sceptical getting this tables for TPA.
I respect People who appreciate old Gottlieb tables from the 60´s 70's, but I personally think, that Farsight/TPA will only have a future, offering modern tables like L.o.t.r., Metallica, Spider-Man, Simpsons, Walking Dead, Tommy. Old Gottliebs will only get positive response by a small group of pinball-enthusiasts. This will not generate enough sales and won´t secure the financial future for TPA/Farsight. The dilemma? Licences for the modern tables are likely to expensive for FS. But that´s just my opinion.