Williams' Collection Volume 5 impressions

kimkom

Member
Jan 28, 2013
914
1
I'm blown away by this release. I can't wait to get home from work and play it more. I don't care that they are re-releases of TPA tables (of which I own every single table). These make TPA's versions look like a joke. I've never wanted to play TOTAN and CV so much since the 90s arcade days.

Excellent! Glad you are enjoying Zen's WMS tables.

Welcome to the forum. :eek:

P.S. you joined in Jul 2012 but have only posted now? :confused:
 
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DorkmasterFlek

New member
Oct 30, 2019
11
0
Had a quick go last night of TOTAN since it's the only one I've actually played IRL. Great table, got to the genie battle on my first attempt but I didn't realize you had to plunge the extra balls manually and lost it LOL. A bit easy compared to others but that's fine with me since I'm not a great player. :D

Can't wait to try the others, especially CV since it looks spectacular and people seem particularly jazzed about that one!
 

Dirty Frank

New member
Feb 20, 2013
49
0
I just don’t feel right about doing business with this company. As good as their tables are I don’t want to play them. I still haven’t touched the tables I bought in The Great Halloween IOS Deception or any of the other ones either. I know this sounds petty and that I am missing out on loads of fun but I’m just not feeling it. Maybe someday I will feel better and buy more tables but not now. After all the complaints, they made no effort to appease us. I can’t let it go. I wish I could.
 

Cloda

New member
Oct 15, 2018
199
0
The flipper recoil was something I personally spoke to Deep about during a recent visit to Zen Studios, as my feeling after the launch of Vol 4 was that it was a little extreme.

He assured me that the physics modelling was based on video footage taken at 960fps that they had done in the studio, so I am happy with that.

Going forward, I think it would be 'nice to have' different flipper settings within the sim mode but that again opens up the whole leaderboard thing.

Therefore, at this point in time I would just like to see the Universal physics applied to all WMS tables, so that we at least have some level of consistency across all tables before any further changes might be made in future.

That way, any updates can be applied globally.

Otherwise, the whole 'different physics' thing is just going to snowball into a whole heap of pain.

I think the problem is not with the recoil, but rather that the flippers are sluggish for lack of a better term. They are not snappy, and that results in timing of especially drop catches being very difficult. I basically adjusted my style to avoid drop catches, because I couldn't make use of it consistently. No big deal, because for each new pack we had to do different compromises i.e. Vol 1 none of the flipper tricks were consistent enough to make use of and tip passes were basically impossible. Anyway, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want it to play like the real deal... I would love that in fact.

Take a look at this video were the player compares (mostly) his ability to do drop catches on the ball being ejected from the scoop on his real Munsters and on Monster Bash in FX3 Classic Arcade. I think he illustrates the issue really well.

 

trash80

New member
Dec 14, 2018
471
0
I think the problem is not with the recoil, but rather that the flippers are sluggish for lack of a better term. They are not snappy, and that results in timing of especially drop catches being very difficult. I basically adjusted my style to avoid drop catches, because I couldn't make use of it consistently. No big deal, because for each new pack we had to do different compromises i.e. Vol 1 none of the flipper tricks were consistent enough to make use of and tip passes were basically impossible. Anyway, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want it to play like the real deal... I would love that in fact.

Take a look at this video were the player compares (mostly) his ability to do drop catches on the ball being ejected from the scoop on his real Munsters and on Monster Bash in FX3 Classic Arcade. I think he illustrates the issue really well.

Input lag is a thing in the video game and every real pin machine is different. This guy in the video doesn't seem to understand how things actually work, and he also seems to be oblivious to what coil ramp up is. #can'tmakeeveryonehappy
 

Moosebox

New member
Sep 21, 2018
12
0
Input lag is a thing in the video game and every real pin machine is different. This guy in the video doesn't seem to understand how things actually work, and he also seems to be oblivious to what coil ramp up is. #can'tmakeeveryonehappy

This.

If he wants to make a real comparison, then he needs to compare FX3 to TPA or other video pinball software. All his video shows is Input Lag as far as I can tell, nothing to do with physics. Now, if he can test and provide his systems input lag, and if it's below 10ms, then maybe he has a point. But without knowing any details about his system, ex: monitor response time and input lag, graphics settings (specifically vsync which can add another 16.6ms of input lag), then we can't really conclude anything from that video.
 

PinJimmy

New member
Jun 27, 2012
54
0
This.

If he wants to make a real comparison, then he needs to compare FX3 to TPA or other video pinball software. All his video shows is Input Lag as far as I can tell, nothing to do with physics. Now, if he can test and provide his systems input lag, and if it's below 10ms, then maybe he has a point. But without knowing any details about his system, ex: monitor response time and input lag, graphics settings (specifically vsync which can add another 16.6ms of input lag), then we can't really conclude anything from that video.

What he is trying to show has nothing to do with input lag but about physics.
He is showing something that we allready know and that is that the physics of zen arcade mode are not perfect. (Classic singleplayer)

As you watch closely the drop catches on real tables are much easier to get right then on the virtual zen tables at this point.
 
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trash80

New member
Dec 14, 2018
471
0
What he is trying to show has nothing to do with input lag but about physics.
He is showing something that we allready know and that is that the physics of zen arcade mode are not perfect

But he isn't. Did you watch the video? He is complaining about input response of the flipper and the end stroke bounce (which happens on the real thing too). He just doesn't know how to articulate it. Anyway, all the behavior differences between his real table and the video game table are moot. Other than the rules being the same, each table experience should be unique based on many factors.

If you are going to complain that the Zen physics are not identical to the real world, you will never stop complaining since that will never happen, and you will likely never be able to play on the physical table that they modeled while they were modeling it.
 

Cloda

New member
Oct 15, 2018
199
0
But he isn't. Did you watch the video? He is complaining about input response of the flipper and the end stroke bounce (which happens on the real thing too). He just doesn't know how to articulate it. Anyway, all the behavior differences between his real table and the video game table are moot. Other than the rules being the same, each table experience should be unique based on many factors.

If you are going to complain that the Zen physics are not identical to the real world, you will never stop complaining since that will never happen, and you will likely never be able to play on the physical table that they modeled while they were modeling it.

He is talking about a particular thing, and that is the ability to do drop catches from the scoop launch. He is trying to illustrate it and theorises why that may be the case. I'm not going to share everything he has to say about it (you can go read that on the Pinball FX3 Community Facebook Page on a post on physics I posted a couple of days ago) because it is way too much. Here are some of his pertinent points (adapted by me):

- Vol 4 and specifically Road Show is the table he feels plays the closest, but a little harder, than the real deal and he can use it for actual practice.
- He compared FX3 Monster Bash to the TT VPX version and says if he wants to practice to play the real table, he uses the TT VPX version as the Zen one is off and specifically because the ball is too heavy and too slow and there is a pronounced bounce of the flippers as they settle and too much play as you shoot from the tip of the flippers (which his real machines don't do).
- The weakness and slow speed of the flippers in Monster Bash is what he dislikes the most.
- Doesn't sound like input lag is the issue in his case

Yes, you will never get anything identical to the real world, but you can assess between two different iterations of the physics, which iteration plays the closest to what you are used to and expect. I'm pretty sure you will agree that Zen physics don't play the same as real life physics and you'll be able to say why. Similarly, playing Universal Monsters or any of the other previous packs, you'll also get a feeling as to which and why certain packs play better and / or more realistic than the other. I agree with him that Vol 4 plays the closest to the real deal requiring just a few tweaks i.e. live catches are very difficult to perform.
 

trash80

New member
Dec 14, 2018
471
0
He is talking about a particular thing, and that is the ability to do drop catches from the scoop launch. He is trying to illustrate it and theorises why that may be the case. I'm not going to share everything he has to say about it (you can go read that on the Pinball FX3 Community Facebook Page on a post on physics I posted a couple of days ago) because it is way too much. Here are some of his pertinent points (adapted by me):

- Vol 4 and specifically Road Show is the table he feels plays the closest, but a little harder, than the real deal and he can use it for actual practice.
- He compared FX3 Monster Bash to the TT VPX version and says if he wants to practice to play the real table, he uses the TT VPX version as the Zen one is off and specifically because the ball is too heavy and too slow and there is a pronounced bounce of the flippers as they settle and too much play as you shoot from the tip of the flippers (which his real machines don't do).
- The weakness and slow speed of the flippers in Monster Bash is what he dislikes the most.
- Doesn't sound like input lag is the issue in his case

Yes, you will never get anything identical to the real world, but you can assess between two different iterations of the physics, which iteration plays the closest to what you are used to and expect. I'm pretty sure you will agree that Zen physics don't play the same as real life physics and you'll be able to say why. Similarly, playing Universal Monsters or any of the other previous packs, you'll also get a feeling as to which and why certain packs play better and / or more realistic than the other. I agree with him that Vol 4 plays the closest to the real deal requiring just a few tweaks i.e. live catches are very difficult to perform.

If the two iterations of physics were tuned by the same developer (they weren't) and featured the exact same physical table (they aren't), you would have a point, but that isn't the case. The Zen physics are arguably the best commercial product video game pinball physics we have seen to date. Other than that, all I hear from people discussing the "iterations" is subjective. And until you strip away the need to render the physics engine at a few hundred frames per second which is then graphically rendered to screen at 60/120/etc and deal with input lag (which is the case in the video posted above) none of this matters. Either you can have fun playing a video game or not, but lets stop comparing (and expecting) 1:1 to a real pin.
 

HighFive

New member
Jun 9, 2019
153
0
I just don’t feel right about doing business with this company. As good as their tables are I don’t want to play them. I still haven’t touched the tables I bought in The Great Halloween IOS Deception or any of the other ones either. I know this sounds petty and that I am missing out on loads of fun but I’m just not feeling it. Maybe someday I will feel better and buy more tables but not now. After all the complaints, they made no effort to appease us. I can’t let it go. I wish I could.

I agree that the IOS version suck balls, i even feel that the ball physics seem different compare to the Switch version ( call me crazy, i even feel that sometime the physics will make you miss on purpose so you start over and over ). But you missing out great pinballs if your a fan, if you got the money, grab yourself a Switch, its very fun to play on that platform. My Switch is my FX3, TPA, Zaccaria platform, and beside Diablo 3, not playing that much else, and just for that its totally worth it. There is also the Flip Grip you can buy for Switch and that make an incredible experience.
 

kimkom

Member
Jan 28, 2013
914
1
The Zen physics are arguably the best commercial product video game pinball physics we have seen to date. Other than that, all I hear from people discussing the "iterations" is subjective. And until you strip away the need to render the physics engine at a few hundred frames per second which is then graphically rendered to screen at 60/120/etc and deal with input lag (which is the case in the video posted above) none of this matters. Either you can have fun playing a video game or not, but lets stop comparing (and expecting) 1:1 to a real pin.

Exactly this.

I’m enjoying what we have and just hoping Deep gets to apply consistent physics across all WMS tables as soon as possible :cool:
 

pinfan7

Banned
May 19, 2019
40
0
The flipper recoil was something I personally spoke to Deep about during a recent visit to Zen Studios, as my feeling after the launch of Vol 4 was that it was a little extreme.

He assured me that the physics modelling was based on video footage taken at 960fps that they had done in the studio, so I am happy with that.

But he isn't. Did you watch the video? He is complaining about input response of the flipper and the end stroke bounce (which happens on the real thing too). He just doesn't know how to articulate it. Anyway, all the behavior differences between his real table and the video game table are moot. Other than the rules being the same, each table experience should be unique based on many factors.

If you are going to complain that the Zen physics are not identical to the real world, you will never stop complaining since that will never happen, and you will likely never be able to play on the physical table that they modeled while they were modeling it.

If the two iterations of physics were tuned by the same developer (they weren't) and featured the exact same physical table (they aren't), you would have a point, but that isn't the case. The Zen physics are arguably the best commercial product video game pinball physics we have seen to date. Other than that, all I hear from people discussing the "iterations" is subjective. And until you strip away the need to render the physics engine at a few hundred frames per second which is then graphically rendered to screen at 60/120/etc and deal with input lag (which is the case in the video posted above) none of this matters. Either you can have fun playing a video game or not, but lets stop comparing (and expecting) 1:1 to a real pin.

People, the guy on the video and the videos from real tables I have posted are saying/showing the same thing, that the flipper "shafts" don't recede, (recoil, give in) at all in real tables, -or at least they do so only imperceptibly- as it was also modeled in Volumes 1,2 and 3, because their spring resistance is >>> than the force the ball applies to them when falling, meaning they are "almost rigid". In Volume 4 though that spring resistance has been significantly reduced so with the same force the flipper shaft recedes, the kinetic energy of the ball (= the end speed) is reduced because the shaft that is receding due to the impact is reserving that energy for its own movement. This is the cause of the problems people have with drop catches. As shown in the vids again, the amount of recoil Zen "emulated" in Volume 4 (and the next packs) is too much and it should be reduced. Filming the movement of the flipper is not a correct physical emulation, it's rather used for creating the animation of the flipper movement and its "return" to the original place.
 
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PinJimmy

New member
Jun 27, 2012
54
0
People, the guy on the video and the videos from real tables I have posted are saying/showing the same thing, that the flipper "shafts" don't recede, (recoil, give in) at all in real tables, -or at least they do so only imperceptibly- as it was also modeled in Volumes 1,2 and 3, because their spring resistance is >>> than the force the ball applies to them when falling, meaning they are "almost rigid". In Volume 4 though that spring resistance has been significantly reduced so with the same force the flipper shaft recedes, the kinetic energy of the ball (= the end speed) is reduced because the shaft that is receding because of the impact is absorbing that energy for its own movement. This is the cause of the problems people have with drop catches. As shown in the vids again, the amount of recoil Zen "emulated" in Volume 4 (and the next packs) is too much and it should be reduced. Filming the movement of the flipper is not a correct physical emulation, it's rather used for creating the animation of the flipper movement and its "return" to the original place.

Its all lag dude, its all lag. Haha atleast according to some guys here.

Kinda suprised about some comments posted here. People really want you to stop comparing the game physics to real life table physics? If they did that you wouldnt have these great physics in the game now. And if people got some suggestions to improve em why not take a look again before locking in the current physics. Deep allready did a great job on em and if he says they are gonna keep em like this its fine by me but who knows, maybe he wants to adjust it here and there.
 
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pinfan7

Banned
May 19, 2019
40
0
I was surprised to read that too, and I did notice some unexplained denial too. It's clear that it's not easy at all simulating the physically correct behavior of the flippers, maybe their physics engine is not that advanced and they have to emulate it by filming it but it doesn't change the fact that it has to be reduced. To put is simple, if their "physical variable" in Volumes 1-3 was set to "0, 100% rigid" and that of Volume 4 to "6", maybe adjust it to "3".

There's still some road to go until the physics are ready to be applied to the older tables, as explained in my other post above, regarding unpredictability, ball speed and ball control that were heavily nerfed in the Universal Pack for the reasons stated.
 
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Scared Stiff

New member
May 18, 2019
184
0
Playing on iOS and unfortunately I discovered that the flipper bug hasn’t been fixed. Playing a game on CV and flippers just went dead and wouldn’t respond until a new ball. I hate that. Please fix Zen. This bug has been going on for too long.
 

skyway73

New member
Feb 16, 2015
38
0
Great to see the passion here, I think we're all in the same boat of wanting the physics to be as close to real pinball as possible. To me, the flippers feel better now but the ball movement has become too predictable. I would rather they keep continually refining all the physics than "locking in" imperfect physics.
 

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