Williams: getting my arse kicked

[tizerist]

I noticed something fairly quickly after trying my first Zen Williams table. I game over way quicker than I ever did on the same tables in TPA. And this is in arcade mode, not tournament. (That setting doesn't just kick my arse, it drags me down the road by my hair and dumps me in a rubbish bin)
I don't understand exactly what I'm doing wrong, or if it's even me. Sometimes a game can last like, two minutes, and I can be on the same TPA table for 20 minutes, no problem. I mean, it's not a problem per se, after all, my only objective is to beat my personal scores, which does (eventually) happen.
I just can't quite put my finger on it. Is the pitch of the table different or something? It doesn't seem like it, but those balls love to drain down the middle before I've even had a chance to react with a nudge.
Thanks (goes and cries on bed)

 

[Xanija]

Zen tables are significantly more difficult than TPA for various reasons. One of them is nudging being less effective. Nudging left means hitting the table left in Zen, while it's the opposite in TPA.

Another reason is the ball being less bouncy than in TPA and more difficult to control, but it's very close to reality. I would never get the scores on a real table like the scores in TPA.

I find myself playing more TPA on my tablet lately, because it's less frustrating. As I don't play with a controller, it adds to the difficulty.

 

[Narc0lep5y]

Zen also has the power ups which kind of even it out the difficulty vs TPA as you level those up per table. You have to do the challenges to unlock some of the bigger ones. Rewind is especially useful while getting a feel for all of the mechanics and just keeping the game going after one miss. The challenges themselves are pretty helpful at getting the feel down too. Especially the 10 minute challenge as drains don’t matter and you can just focus on practicing shots.

 

[tizerist]

Zen tables are significantly more difficult than TPA for various reasons. One of them is nudging being less effective. Nudging left means hitting the table left in Zen, while it's the opposite in TPA.

Another reason is the ball being less bouncy than in TPA and more difficult to control, but it's very close to reality. I would never get the scores on a real table like the scores in TPA.

I find myself playing more TPA on my tablet lately, because it's less frustrating. As I don't play with a controller, it adds to the difficulty.

So maybe it's that. But, I don't find Zen tables to be difficult in general. In fact, it's the most forgiving pinball game I have in terms of 'ball saved' and flipper distance. It's only the Williams tables which torture me this way. I find myself shaking my head and shouting "**** off" at the screen and no other pinball game I have does that. I don't think I'll ever be good at the Williams Zen tables. Nevertheless, they are a step up visually and physics-wise from TPA, so I accept that I've made an upgrade in that respect, even if it does infuriate me.

Zen also has the power ups which kind of even it out the difficulty vs TPA as you level those up per table. You have to do the challenges to unlock some of the bigger ones. Rewind is especially useful while getting a feel for all of the mechanics and just keeping the game going after one miss. The challenges themselves are pretty helpful at getting the feel down too. Especially the 10 minute challenge as drains don’t matter and you can just focus on practicing shots.

I hate the levelling-a-table-up thing. To me, a table shouldn't give you more points the more you play it. That wouldn't work in an arcade and it doesn't work at home for me either.
How do you access 10 minute challenge? I must have missed that option....
edit: ah, maybe because I don't level up.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

Yeah are we talking the Steam/console version of FX3, or the Android/iOS Williams Pinball app?

Because the mobile apps are a whole new world of pain (and either grinding, or fathoming how the currencies work to figure out how much you need to pay to unlock everything).

 

[tizerist]

PC

 

[Gorgar]

I found the arcade mode of the first four zen Williams table to be pretty easy - around TPA difficulty. However, I thought the tables in Williams pack 2 was tuned much harder than the previous 4 tables (in arcade mode).

 

[Xanija]

So maybe it's that. But, I don't find Zen tables to be difficult in general. In fact, it's the most forgiving pinball game I have in terms of 'ball saved' and flipper distance. It's only the Williams tables which torture me this way.

I was, of course, only talking about the Williams tables, as this is what you were talking about.

I find myself shaking my head and shouting "**** off" at the screen and no other pinball game I have does that. I don't think I'll ever be good at the Williams Zen tables.

They are difficult, yes, but I think you can get better at them with enough practice. They are just less forgiving, if you shoot the ball without having control, i.e. stopping.

 

[shutyertrap]

I noticed something fairly quickly after trying my first Zen Williams table. I game over way quicker than I ever did on the same tables in TPA. And this is in arcade mode, not tournament. (That setting doesn't just kick my arse, it drags me down the road by my hair and dumps me in a rubbish bin)
I don't understand exactly what I'm doing wrong, or if it's even me. Sometimes a game can last like, two minutes, and I can be on the same TPA table for 20 minutes, no problem. I mean, it's not a problem per se, after all, my only objective is to beat my personal scores, which does (eventually) happen.
I just can't quite put my finger on it. Is the pitch of the table different or something? It doesn't seem like it, but those balls love to drain down the middle before I've even had a chance to react with a nudge.
Thanks (goes and cries on bed)

There's a couple of things to consider and take note of.

1. Single player should offer up a similar experience to TPA. The flipper angles are the same, the ball is more predictable.

2. Classic single player, where the option to play 'arcade' or 'tournament' is, is an experience much closer what you'd have playing a real life physical table. These feature brand new physics to Zen, which include everything from surface friction to ball spin, and more trajectory possibilities off the rubbers, plastics, and ejects. TPA never had true ball spin, never gripped the surface of the playfield, and had many predictable behaviors the ball would do depending on where it came from. Also, the flippers have a shallower angle which makes cradling a live ball much more difficult.

3. The difference between arcade and tournament is a slightly steeper pitch, outlane guides set to their hardest position, and certain rule changes like no extra balls and lower jackpot awards.

4. Pinball in general was never designed to allow 20 minute games, let alone the marathons you can pull off in TPA. Getting 2 Lost in the Zones on one ball should be a miracle to pull off, not something that happens every 3rd game. I got so used to how things played in TPA that when I'd touch the real version, my play was actually worse than it should be because of the muscle memory associated with the digital version. Relish the difficulty of 'arcade' mode, you'll truly appreciate every extra ball you can manage, you'll get a true sense of accomplishment reaching Battle for the Kingdom on Medieval Madness rather than being bored with playing it AGAIN. If things get a bit too frustrating, pop back into regular single player. It's still a bit different from TPA, but similar all the same.

So it's not that you are doing anything wrong. It's that Zen is doing it right and giving you a much truer pinball experience. Believe me, it's kicked my butt more than a few times, and I'm essentially grinning ear to ear saying "please sir, may I have another?"

 

[Hinph]

It all comes down to the more realistic physics. Hey, pinball is tough. Think about how quickly you drain on a real machine.

 

[Citizen]

One of them is nudging being less effective.

To expand on this, the most significant difference is that Zen's nudging doesn't allow for impossible ball trajectory changes while the ball is moving through an open area without making contact with any object on the playfield, like TPA does. It's not your reaction time that's the problem, the problem is that TPA allowing players to save center drains by using the nudge feature to hook a ball back towards a flipper was unrealistic and crazy overpowered.

 

[Narc0lep5y]

I hate the levelling-a-table-up thing. To me, a table shouldn't give you more points the more you play it. That wouldn't work in an arcade and it doesn't work at home for me either.
How do you access 10 minute challenge? I must have missed that option....
edit: ah, maybe because I don't level up.

I goofed, It's the 5 minute challenge. The survival challenge ends up being about 10 minutes once you max it out. Both have unlimited drains. They aren't too bad and they also get you stars for table badges, so look at it as achievement hunting instead. Or you could do just straight practice mode which is unlimited drains for an hour I think.

 

[vikingerik]

To expand on this, the most significant difference is that Zen's nudging doesn't allow for impossible ball trajectory changes while the ball is moving through an open area without making contact with any object on the playfield, like TPA does. It's not your reaction time that's the problem, the problem is that TPA allowing players to save center drains by using the nudge feature to hook a ball back towards a flipper was unrealistic and crazy overpowered.

This is correct. It's possible to do approximately what TPA does on a real table -- what you do to make similar saves is slide the whole table an inch or two underneath the ball. That's possible to about the same degree that TPA lets you hook the ball path. Of course, it's still crazy overpowered to do it reliably every single time at the touch of one button and without triggering any tilt warnings.

 

[yespage]

One question I had about TPA was whether the bumpers were overpowered, or the game was just modeling it as a new table and the bumpers were originally that bumpy. In MM or AFM you'd have the ball hanging up there for a significant amount of time, boosting the multiplier, where as in real life, the ball would give you a x+1 on the multiplier and leave.

Regardless, I do like the option of real world and easier world pinball. It is fun to play the real thing (or a close proximity) and playing a more forgiving physics.

 

[shutyertrap]

One question I had about TPA was whether the bumpers were overpowered, or the game was just modeling it as a new table and the bumpers were originally that bumpy. In MM or AFM you'd have the ball hanging up there for a significant amount of time, boosting the multiplier, where as in real life, the ball would give you a x+1 on the multiplier and leave.

Regardless, I do like the option of real world and easier world pinball. It is fun to play the real thing (or a close proximity) and playing a more forgiving physics.

Gravity tends to win on real machines! I’ve had occasion where a ball will stay in pops for a bit, but never consistently. There’s a reason earning a super jets award is worth what it is rather than the gimme of digital pinball.

 

[wilbers]

Gravity, the weakest of the forces, still the King in a pinball machine unless there is a magnet in it.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

Gravity, the weakest of the forces, still the King in a pinball machine unless there is a magnet in it.

Because the electromagnetic force is far stronger at short distances than gravity? I never got how the weak force works, but that's okay, because since I'm never likely to be the size of an atomic nucleus, neither it nor the strong force are ever likely to bother me directly.

 

[JefferyD]

Yeah, pro physics and difficulty makes it seem real. Instead of quitting TPA Attack From Mars with three extra balls still waiting because I’m late for work, I can play about ten games on Zen. Instead of getting two Rule the Universes in one game I’ve yet to destroy two saucers in one go.

I think the only time I’ve been so happy to be so bad at digital pinball was back when I first got addicted to Big Shot in the early TPA days. Now, I’ve got the same feeling toward AFM, Fish Tales and Medieval Madness. I burned out on those previously when I consistently started having long games. Now they’re relevant to me again.

 

[tizerist]

Classic single player, where the option to play 'arcade' or 'tournament' is, is an experience much closer what you'd have playing a real life physical table. These feature brand new physics to Zen, which include everything from surface friction to ball spin, and more trajectory possibilities off the rubbers, plastics, and ejects. TPA never had true ball spin, never gripped the surface of the playfield, and had many predictable behaviors the ball would do depending on where it came from. Also, the flippers have a shallower angle which makes cradling a live ball much more difficult.

3. The difference between arcade and tournament is a slightly steeper pitch, outlane guides set to their hardest position, and certain rule changes like no extra balls and lower jackpot awards.

I see...My understanding was that Classic Single Player was basically PFX2 mode (with no levelling up), and that the Arcade mode meant the traditional PFX physics, and that it was the Tournament mode that brought the new physics...

 

[shutyertrap]

I see...My understanding was that Classic Single Player was basically PFX2 mode (with no levelling up), and that the Arcade mode meant the traditional PFX physics, and that it was the Tournament mode that brought the new physics...

Yeah, I hate the terminology. Should be ‘Zen Single Player’ or ‘Zen Mode’ and then Classic. It’s even more confusing with the originals, as Classic just means no bonus scoring upgrades. If they ever do apply the WMS physics to those originals, it’d make more sense to rename as I’m suggesting, or drop ‘classic’ entirely and call it Arcade (but ask if you want standard or tournament difficulty) or Sim. And then of course, make it uniform with mobile and drop the ‘pro’ nomenclature from that.