Zen pinball, fx3, and mobile game difficulty modes and physics

[msilcommand]

Zen should create parity across all of their games with difficulty settings for all tables as:

1. Normal (The default setting. Zen table default physics.)
2. Hard (Currently "arcade" mode on fx3)
3. Expert (the physics of the current tournament mode of fx3, but with extra balls on)
4. Tournament (as it is now on fx3)

"Normal" is really for entry-level play, to hook people in, or just for a fun, long, level-up type of gameplay. It's the crack taste for non-pinheads; really a novice difficulty, rpg-ish setting.

"Arcade" is not arcade physics, so they should just call it hard, and get away from special terms. It's a step up for players from "normal", so the traditional "hard" verbiage works fine.

"Expert" should be the close to real-world physics (on a brand new machine) that "tournament" in fx3 has, but with regular game rules, which would be what you'd really experience in an arcade (on a new machine). This is what real-world arcade pinball fans would probably play most of the time.

"Tournament" is fine as it is.

Zen's current disparity of difficulty modes across their games makes it appear like they are confused about it themselves, although I realize they are an iterative team, and are just testing to see what works best. However, there's absolutely no need for them to be messing around with modes the way they are. It confuses newbs and aggravates enthusiasts. It makes more work for Zen. It's one of those cases of a company making a simple thing much harder by trying to please everyone....

All they need to do is go with Normal, Hard, Expert, and Tournament. It will create parity, it is familiar to all gamers, AND it will shut most people up.

 

[trash80]

First of all, the Mobile and PC/Console games are not comparable from a physics, packaging or marketing perspective. They are already similar enough, but there will never be 1:1 parity, and there shouldn't be.

Most (of which I can count on one hand) of the people complaining about the mode (and physics settings) jargon are players that came over from TPA to Pinball FX3 when the Bally/Williams tables were released. This is a non-issue, and they are not 'testing' to see what works best. These games have been in development for years, and when a table is released by Zen it has already been in the production pipeline for the last 12 to 24 months.

 

[msilcommand]

First of all, the Mobile and PC/Console games are not comparable from a physics, packaging or marketing perspective. They are already similar enough, but there will never be 1:1 parity, and there shouldn't be.

Most (of which I can count on one hand) of the people complaining about the mode (and physics settings) jargon are players that came over from TPA to Pinball FX3 when the Bally/Williams tables were released. This is a non-issue, and they are not 'testing' to see what works best. These games have been in development for years, and when a table is released by Zen it has already been in the production pipeline for the last 12 to 24 months.

We're not talking about parity of the code or the physics. We're talking about parity of the naming conventions of their settings for gameplay. Reread the thread's statement.

A simple...

Normal
Hard
Expert
Tournament

That's it.

Zen is most definitely an iterative team that is trying different approaches across platforms. They have told me as much in their response to direct inquiry about various things on PS4, Steam, and Android.

I don't see any reason why they would not go with the standard setting names of Normal, Hard, etc. I understand mobile doesn't need to have as many settings, but at the very least they could just go with Normal and Hard there. People don't need to be setting "physics" on their tables. They just need to know what a mode (normal, hard, etc) entails.

 

[trash80]

We're not talking about parity of the code or the physics. We're talking about parity of the naming conventions of their settings for gameplay. Reread the thread's statement.

A simple...

Normal
Hard
Expert
Tournament

That's it. And the three people I have gotten into FX3 and Williams on Android at work all complained to me that it is confusing. Not to mention the multiple times I have already seen it on forums, including on here.

Zen is most definitely an iterative team that is trying different approaches across platforms. They have told me as much in their response to direct inquiry about various things on PS4, Steam, and Android.

There is absolutely no conceivable reason why they would not just go with the standard setting names of Normal, Hard, etc. I understand mobile doesn't need to have as many settings, but at the very least they could just go with Normal and Hard there. People don't need to be setting "physics" on their tables. They just need to know what a mode (normal, hard, etc) entails.

Thankfully business isn't run on anecdotes.

You know, It really isn't worth responding to you anymore.

 

[msilcommand]

Thankfully business isn't run on anecdotes.

You know, It really isn't worth responding to you anymore.

Could you offer a reason why they should stick to what they're doing, rather than going the standard way of Normal, Hard, etc?

 

[Xanija]

If this thread continues like this, it will be closed. First and last warning.

 

[Xanija]

Be mindful of your responses, too please.

 

[msilcommand]

Be mindful of your responses, too please.

Will do

 

[msilcommand]

Just played an AFM pin with the wife. The Tournament physics on FX3 are almost exactly like the real-world physics. Both of our high scores were in the same range as they are on tournament mode in fx3.

So, why not make an "Expert" mode on Zen games that are just normal arcade rules, with "real" physics. Why the "pro physics" stuff, and "arcade", when "arcade" is not "real" physics? Why not just call that mode "hard"? Why only put "real" physics in "tournament" mode with tournament rules?

Why isn't there an arcade rules mode with "real" physics?

 

[shutyertrap]

There's a lot of confusing choices of words Zen has chosen, I agree.

It started in FX3 before Williams was a thing, when they introduced 'Classic Single Player'. What this was denoting was the difference of 'Single Player' having the ability to have boosts and wizard bonus upgrades while playing, versus 'Classic' which was regular play like we saw in FX2. In truth that should have been 'Single Player' and the new boost enhanced version should have been something along the lines of 'Single Player Plus' or something.

It's sorta like how it used to be Star Wars, Empire, and Jedi, all the way up until the prequels came out. For 20 years nobody called Star Wars 'A New Hope', and suddenly there was this influx of younger viewers who not only called it that, but more often referred to it as Episode 4! And you can't even say "the first Star Wars" because then people assume you're talking about Phantom Menace, so now we have to say things like "original trilogy" and stuff. Gah! (end rant)

So whatever, Zen made the mistake of making the new mode sound like the original mode by naming it a very normal 'Single Player' and listing it first, while relegating the original mode with a weird nomenclature, ensuring most new players would only be playing the new version.

Then comes Williams.

Nothing about 'Classic Single Player' screams "hey, here's where the new real life physics are" and so you had a large group of people complaining about the unrealistic physics because they couldn't be bothered to scroll down to 'Classic', something they may have never looked at with any of the Zen originals either. And then to make matters worse you have 'Arcade' and 'Tournament' to choose from.

I get that Zen was trying to say "like how you know it from the arcade", but we in the gaming world all know that 'arcade' typically means more forgiving settings, especially in driving games. So where Gran Turismo was more of a sim, Ridge Racer had 'arcade' physics that were purely meant for having fun with, like what you found in a coin-op cabinet. 'Tournament' was indeed the right choice though, as this is a recognized setting in the pinball world on real tables, and everybody know what it means. Zen has said they modeled it after PAPA settings, and I suppose they could have named it that or IFPA, but that's a bit hardcore for the casual pinballer to know what those acronyms even stand for.

Zen's initial naming mistake is now compounded and becomes an even bigger mistake for Williams, but once you get over the initial WTF of it, all is well again. Or at least until you download the Williams Pinball app.

Why Zen didn't continue with the exact same naming standards they'd established for FX3 is beyond me. In one sense, I suppose they were now fixing the prior mistake as Pro Physics does indeed imply more difficult, but then you have Pro Difficulty which confuses what that even is compared to Pro Physics! Call it 'Real Physics' and use 'Tournament' once more, clears everything up. I'm fine with 'enhanced' for the visual reference as it's a bit better than my calling it 'Zen mode' for months on the podcast, but how 'bout carrying that term over to FX3?

I know that Zen wants to eventually have an FX3 for mobile with their original tables, utilizing the new graphics and physics updates they did for those, as well as having all the community features that are in the PC and console versions. It's gonna be confusing as hell if they keep changing what things are called between mobile and everything else. More than that, I'm willing to live with the terms they've chosen, just with a bit from column PC and a bit from column Mobile.

Just one more thing I wish I could have been a fly on the wall for, hearing how these things were decided in the first place.

 

[msilcommand]

There's a lot of confusing choices of words Zen has chosen, I agree....

Just one more thing I wish I could have been a fly on the wall for, hearing how these things were decided in the first place.

Good intel on the backstory. I see how they ended up with the classic single player nomenclature now.

I really think they could start with an update to FX3, changing it to Normal, Hard, Expert, and Tourn. Normal being their classic Zen physics for newbs or funsies with the table upgrades (the mode they call Single Player now). Hard being what they call Arcade now, which seems to be a little tougher physics, and without table upgrades.

Then Expert could just have info notes that say "real world physics emulation", but leave the table rules at normal. That would be the expected difficulty progression, imho.

The thing that strikes me the most is that they didn't create a mode with real-world physics, and normal table rules. That is what would feel like playing a real pin in arcade to me: real-world physics and normal machine rules.

Tournament, would be the machine rules, not the physics settings. That is confusing too, but would be helped by having an Expert mode that precedes it on the difficulty settings scale, and which has real-world physics too, but just doesn't have tourn rules on.

 

[msilcommand]

[MENTION=134]shutyertrap[/MENTION]

I noticed that they updated the physics for the Arcade mode to be more realistic. Before it was like an enhanced version of their classic physics. Now they are damn spot on imo. I would like a little improvement on the live catch and bang-back physics, but other than that, they are nailing it. I get 60fps on a gtx1050 at 75hz, so maybe my timing is off by a few milliseconds. Not sure.

 

[shutyertrap]

I'm not aware that a physics update was applied to the the current version of FX3, but it's possible. We are testing some things in beta right now, which is usually where things happen before going live to everyone else. But hey, glad you're liking what currently is out there!

 

[trash80]

No, there has been no recent change (since Vol. 3) to any aspect of Pinball FX3. Any updates would be reflected in the Steam depot. The arcade physics have always been the WMS "real" physics, and the tournament physics are identical to the arcade physics with just a steeper playfield slope and tournament specific scoring.

The normal Zen physics were adjusted slightly on the WMS tables when Vol 2 was released, but there hasn't been anything since. Something to keep in mind is that each WMS table is tuned by an individual developer/designer that is personally working with the physical table in question. So you may see some slight differences in the overall physics package when comparing one table to another.

 

[msilcommand]

I'm not aware that a physics update was applied to the the current version of FX3, but it's possible. We are testing some things in beta right now, which is usually where things happen before going live to everyone else. But hey, glad you're liking what currently is out there!

Interesting. I didn't play the PC version of the Williams tables for a couple weeks, and then when I went back, the physics seemed much more tuned. That light alloy ball feel swapped for a more steel ball feel and more poppy rubber, closer to the tournament physics. I was just playing on the PS4, which I have to check now to see if it seems different now too.