A pre-emptive strike against flipper lag!

smbhax

Active member
Apr 24, 2012
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I just wanted to put out here a firm thread in which we say a firm "NO!" to flipper lag in the pinball game. Let's not have any delay in flipper response at all this time around, please. : )

FarSight's earlier "Pinball Hall of Fame" games on both PS2 and later PS3 had no perceptible flipper lag; the flippers had a crisp feel, responding instantly when you pressed the controller button, just like those of us used to real pinball would expect them to--this allowed for shots to go precisely where they were aimed, and one's aim could translate perfectly between playing digitally and playing the real tables. And it was good.

Unfortunately, on the PS3 version of The Pinball Arcade, FarSight decided to use some rendering techniques that inserted a frame or two of delay for graphics processing between the time you pressed the button and the time the flipper actually flipped, throwing off the player's aim and making the game feel sluggish and unresponsive--in the end, less realistic and less fun. While they eventually managed to cut the delay in half, it is still there and still prevents the game from feeling like real pinball; if you're someone who likes to go back and forth between real pinball and digital pinball, then when you get home and fire up The Pinball Arcade after a visit to your local arcade, if you're like me you'll whiff your first shots because you've forgotten you have to flip early to compensate for the game's delayed flipper response.

Hopefully FarSight will have learned from their experience with the PS3 version, and the PS4 version will be as responsive and lifelike as their games of yore! Because if you haven't got quick flippers, you haven't really got a pinball game, have you?

~~~~~

For me, while the shiny new graphics of the PS4 version will probably be a plus, the flipper response is the make-or-break issue as to whether I'll be moving up from the PS3 version. So I'll anxiously be awaiting reports from the day one buyers on how the flippers feel on the PS4!
 
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brakel

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Apr 27, 2012
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I hope there is zero lag as well but I don't think this thread is going to change whether it does or not.
 

ER777

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Sep 8, 2012
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I agree with pretty much everything you said except I will probably upgrade either way. I really hope they make lag-free gameplay a priority too though. My opinion is having that crisp flipper action like PHoF should be a requirement over any form of lighting effects. If you can't do it without introducing input delay then you can't do it, end of story.
 

Metalzoic

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Jun 8, 2012
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I agree with this. Especially since people that play via Remote Play will already have some lag/latency to deal with. No reason to compound it.
 

Worf

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Aug 12, 2012
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Does the PS4 allow for wired controllers if you plug it in via USB? I know Xbox360 gamers often carried a wired controller around just to get rid of the controller lag, and I know the Xbone ones the instant you plug it into USB, they become wired controllers...

Won't get rid of the biggest sources, but every little bit helps...
 

Rafie

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Jul 17, 2012
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I think the reason why the PS3 has "flipper lag" is because it's a straight port from the 360. While most of the tables for the most part works jut fine, you'll notice some things in the PS3 that's lacking compared to it's 360 counterpart. That's why I'm glad that FarSight is developing ON the PS4 for TPA this time around. I don't think we'll be seeing the flipper lag again.
 

smbhax

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Apr 24, 2012
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I think the reason why the PS3 has "flipper lag" is because it's a straight port from the 360. While most of the tables for the most part works jut fine, you'll notice some things in the PS3 that's lacking compared to it's 360 counterpart. That's why I'm glad that FarSight is developing ON the PS4 for TPA this time around. I don't think we'll be seeing the flipper lag again.

It isn't a straight port; the 360 version uses a simpler rendering method that's more like their earlier games. They were planning to update the 360 version to use the rendering style the PS3 uses, I always thought it would have been interesting to know if that would have caused flipper lag on the 360.
 

Mark W**a

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Sep 7, 2012
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There are solutions to flipper lag already with PS3.

HDMI --> VGA converter is one. ASUS low latency monitors is another. Standard Def on a CRT is another.

This isn't just a Pinball Arcade issue this is an issue with a lot of PS3 games. PS3 has a bad (read: none IIRC) scaler in it compared to 360. This will not be a problem with PS4. Also 360's lag just like PS3's when using HDMI on every TV I've tested (which is 7 sets total) it's a wonder that doesn't get reported more often.

The lighting engine is not what's causing lag. That's silly no offense. An advanced lighting engine could cause slowdown, that's another thing entirely, but I don't think PS3 has issues there.
 
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brakel

New member
Apr 27, 2012
2,305
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There are solutions to flipper lag already with PS3.

HDMI --> VGA converter is one. ASUS low latency monitors is another. Standard Def on a CRT is another.

This isn't just a Pinball Arcade issue this is an issue with a lot of PS3 games. PS3 has a bad (read: none IIRC) scaler in it compared to 360. This will not be a problem with PS4. Also 360's lag just like PS3's when using HDMI on every TV I've tested (which is 7 sets total) it's a wonder that doesn't get reported more often.

The lighting engine is not what's causing lag. That's silly no offense. An advanced lighting engine could cause slowdown, that's another thing entirely, but I don't think PS3 has issues there.

Some really good insight there Mark. One of the problems with discussing this issue is that some people become very defensive. Some people are defensive about their A/V equipment, some about the game, some about the PS3, etc. When it comes down to it the problem lies within them all. Any one source might not be enough to make a difference but once you start adding all the microseconds together it starts to mess with the enjoyment with the game. I have come to believe that the PS3 itself is responsible for a significant portion of the problem and am looking forward to finding out how well TPA compares on the PS4.
 

ER777

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Sep 8, 2012
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There are solutions to flipper lag already with PS3.

HDMI --> VGA converter is one. ASUS low latency monitors is another. Standard Def on a CRT is another.

This isn't just a Pinball Arcade issue this is an issue with a lot of PS3 games. PS3 has a bad (read: none IIRC) scaler in it compared to 360. This will not be a problem with PS4. Also 360's lag just like PS3's when using HDMI on every TV I've tested (which is 7 sets total) it's a wonder that doesn't get reported more often.

The lighting engine is not what's causing lag. That's silly no offense. An advanced lighting engine could cause slowdown, that's another thing entirely, but I don't think PS3 has issues there.

Its the frame of processing delay FS built in to facilitate the lighting that people are talking about. Its not actual input delay but has that effect in terms of perception. That one frame equates to 16.6ms that the display is already behind the inputs and physics engine. Its not a lot on its own but paired with the other factors mentioned, like the bad PS3 scaler or more importantly TVs with a lot of post-processing, it becomes quite noticeable.

The VGA converter or a low latency monitor, or even just the proper settings on the TV do a good job of mitigating the part that the TV introduces (mostly from post-processing in many cases). SD on a CRT TV has been the only way I've tried that has felt 100% lag free but that's a big visual trade-off.

Nothing can be done about any part that the PS3 itself is contributing of course, but what this thread is about is telling FS not add any native delay for effects again. Most of us assume it wouldn't be necessary on the PS4 but it doesn't hurt to say it. My expectation is that on PS4 the only lag would be the minimal amount the TV display adds, which like you said can be worked with.
 

smbhax

Active member
Apr 24, 2012
1,803
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Yeah, what this thread is about is the slight delay for lighting that FarSight has said on this forum is built into the PS3 version of the game--nothing to do with all the display device voodoo that other people have brought up in the past.
 

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