algorythmic level of difficulty

[Baron Rubik]

I think it was Mike, who when questioned about the TZ gumball lock up bug at the time, said something along the lines of...

The ball isn't always reacting against 3D geometry it can be following a pre - determined (invisible to us) path. For example, when the ball comes up the TZ gumball upkicker, it isn't following the wireform, it's tracking along an invisible centre line.

You see this elsewhere in TPA, the most obvious one to me being the outlane saves on Centaur.
Some times there is not enough momentum, so in real life, you know it wouldn't have gone through, but in TPA, it seems like it's just enough to trigger the conditionals, or to put it on the pre-determined path, and it's like driver assist takes over, not physics.

I could be misquoting, plain wrong, or just have imagined this whole idea though as I don't feel like finding the post I may have imagined from 10 months ago.

 

[Sumez]

From a programmer's perspective, it makes perfect sense.

But adding an algorithm to make these paths screw up things when you reach a certain score? Not bloody likely.

 

[JPelter]

I think it was Mike, who when questioned about the TZ gumball lock up bug at the time, said something along the lines of...

The ball isn't always reacting against 3D geometry it can be following a pre - determined (invisible to us) path. For example, when the ball comes up the TZ gumball upkicker, it isn't following the wireform, it's tracking along an invisible centre line.

You see this elsewhere in TPA, the most obvious one to me being the outlane saves on Centaur.
Some times there is not enough momentum, so in real life, you know it wouldn't have gone through, but in TPA, it seems like it's just enough to trigger the conditionals, or to put it on the pre-determined path, and it's like driver assist takes over, not physics.

I could be misquoting, plain wrong, or just have imagined this whole idea though as I don't feel like finding the post I may have imagined from 10 months ago.

Yeah I'm not saying stuff like that never happens. I'm saying in the places where it does it is predictable and always happens in the same way in the same situation.

 

[DrainoBraino]

It's all hogwash. After playing long enough you'd notice if the tables acted contrary to physics. There are only a handful of places in TPA where there's physics weirdness and they are consistent at all times (big shot left outlane as an example)......

That's what I'm saying tho, I have played long enough to notice the things acting contrary to physics. I'll have to pay more attention to when it actually happens and document it to say if it is happening more when the stakes are higher.

example: last night I was playing CFTBL. Had super jackpot ready, one ball cradled on the left flipper. Waiting for the other ball to come out of the pops. it runs down the right side of the table, where almost 100% of the time you can hold up the right flipper and trap it after a little bounce. This time as it passes the sling, it somehow hits the sling, without actually touching it, and then the ball is launched at an impossible angle. straight down through the flipper and drains. It happened so fast, I'm like come on that never happens. That's why I'm saying this, that never happens, but it did right when I needed that trap.

but again, I'm conflicted. I don't know if these things just happen all the time, like Dr Dude outlane drains 10 times in a row off the first plunge hahha. but you don't care when it doesn't matter. I really wouldn't be surprised if there was something in the programming that causes unfavorable bounces.

 

[JPelter]

That's what I'm saying tho, I have played long enough to notice the things acting contrary to physics. I'll have to pay more attention to when it actually happens and document it to say if it is happening more when the stakes are higher.

example: last night I was playing CFTBL. Had super jackpot ready, one ball cradled on the left flipper. Waiting for the other ball to come out of the pops. it runs down the right side of the table, where almost 100% of the time you can hold up the right flipper and trap it after a little bounce. This time as it passes the sling, it somehow hits the sling, without actually touching it, and then the ball is launched at an impossible angle. straight down through the flipper and drains. It happened so fast, I'm like come on that never happens. That's why I'm saying this, that never happens, but it did right when I needed that trap.

but again, I'm conflicted. I don't know if these things just happen all the time, like Dr Dude outlane drains 10 times in a row off the first plunge hahha. but you don't care when it doesn't matter. I really wouldn't be surprised if there was something in the programming that causes unfavorable bounces.

Unexpected sling activations/non-activations happen all the time on real tables too. The thing you have to ask yourself is why would they expend extra manhours to code something like that in. They've already made the tables easier overall than real-world tables to get novice players more into the game. They have literally nothing to gain from some kind of ridiculous thing where if X then Y happens. I've personally never seen a single thing I couldn't explain outside of blatant known bugs.

 

[DrainoBraino]

Unexpected sling activations/non-activations happen all the time on real tables too. The thing you have to ask yourself is why would they expend extra manhours to code something like that in. They've already made the tables easier overall than real-world tables to get novice players more into the game. They have literally nothing to gain from some kind of ridiculous thing where if X then Y happens. I've personally never seen a single thing I couldn't explain outside of blatant known bugs.

I realize all that. Don't want toot my own horn, but I've been around the block with virtual and real pinball. The reason why they would program something like that is to artificially introduce randomness into the tables and to make them more difficult. That's the big complaints of virtual pinball, too easy and not random. These things do not seem to happen on Zen, VP, Pinball Fantasies, and others. TPA does some weird things!

again, I'm not saying for sure they are doing this, but sometimes it makes you wonder......that's all I'm gonna say on this subject unless there's a comment from the programmers, because nobody can really prove anything and I'm going to just chalk it up to weird things happening.

 

[Espy]

Is it just me or is this turning into a conspiracy theory thread?

 

[JPelter]

I realize all that. Don't want toot my own horn, but I've been around the block with virtual and real pinball. The reason why they would program something like that is to artificially introduce randomness into the tables and to make them more difficult. That's the big complaints of virtual pinball, too easy and not random. These things do not seem to happen on Zen, VP, Pinball Fantasies, and others. TPA does some weird things!

again, I'm not saying for sure they are doing this, but sometimes it makes you wonder......that's all I'm gonna say on this subject unless there's a comment from the programmers, because nobody can really prove anything and I'm going to just chalk it up to weird things happening.

Do you have any idea how hard it would be to code something that chooses to ignore the physics engine randomly without breaking the game? I guess I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here. What is the weird thing exactly?

I guess I might come off as too hostile. I'm just completely baffled because I have way way too much time on TPA and I've never seen anything that seems like a blatant physics violation outside of a few known spots.

 

[Squid]

It never ceases to amaze me that when someone says that they are oh so good or they are the best are quick to blame something other than themself when things go wrong. I did some score chasing on Ripley's last weekend. From the first billion to the tenth(a six hour game), I never saw anything that I couldn't blame on my own mistakes.

Something I learned in a previous occupation is that the subtlest and almost imperceptible amounts of doubt/fear/hesitation/anxiety/anxiousness can lead to huge mistakes. I feel that pinball is no different. Just my two sense.

 

[Deltaechoe]

this question belongs to those(like me) who play an overwhelming amount of hours devoted to a specific machine in search of that tables highest scores...i am VERY good at pinball, played all my life, i absolutely love TPA, so here is my question....when i play a specific machine(space shuttle, medevial madness, the creature...) it seems that the higher your score, or the higher the jackpot amounts, or the number of extra balls stockpiled, that the machines consistantly behave negatively, sending balls off pop bumbers directly to the outlanes, shots to ramps and other targets seem to slightly miss and take an odd trajectory, and this happens in an upward trend relative to your score. a perfect example of this is medevial madness when making an assault on the relm(king of the relm), the difficulty seems to take on mind of it's own as it seems almost impossible to do, time and again...so, is the programing as such to prevent and protect existing high scores? i am not a casual player, i log an immense amount of hours, i am very good at pinball, i am left to believe that an ALGORYTHMIC LEVEL OF DIFFICULTY exists, it can be no other way. if you devote all of your TPA playing time(an absurd amount) to ONE specific machine you will eventually experience what i am talking about. can someone other then the peanut gallery answer this question?

Couple things do that, overconfidence and anxiety. It isn't that the table is getting harder, but it's more like when you're on a hotstreak you get overconfident or anxious about losing it and from there you get sloppy. I've had plenty of games where I score big on one ball and then drain the rest instantly because I'm trying too hard to beat the score i got on that other ball. So, in conclusion, it's you and not the table

 

[Sumez]

Something I learned in a previous occupation is that the subtlest and almost imperceptible amounts of doubt/fear/hesitation/anxiety/anxiousness can lead to huge mistakes. I feel that pinball is no different. Just my two sense.

Pinball does that probably more than most other things. If I get an extra ball, I'm 300% more likely to drain the one I'm currently on

 

[JPelter]

Couple things do that, overconfidence and anxiety. It isn't that the table is getting harder, but it's more like when you're on a hotstreak you get overconfident or anxious about losing it and from there you get sloppy. I've had plenty of games where I score big on one ball and then drain the rest instantly because I'm trying too hard to beat the score i got on that other ball. So, in conclusion, it's you and not the table

Absolutely this. At least for me there are several levels to this. You start off and you don't have much in it and you play pretty normal. Eventually if it goes well you start catching up to your personal best or whatever score you're aiming for and the pressure builds. This is the point where you're playing the absolute worst. Once you pass the score it's all free and you play really well. Eventually, and this only applies to tables where you can go for hours, you just get so bored and tired you start getting super sloppy and making mistakes which leads to the end if you don't just drain out voluntarily before that happens.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I'm going to let this thread continue, despite the reports I've received about it, because there appears to be an actual discussion occurring regarding whether TPA is programmed to behave differently according to the current state of the game in progress, and if not, what might be the reasons for some peoples' perceptions that it does. However, several participants are right up against the line between valid argument and personal attack. We're watching this thread pretty closely now; please take care when posting so as not to find yourself on the wrong side of the line.

For my own two cents, it is my understanding that some of the physics weirdness can be attributed to bugs (Scared Stiff's Deadhead loop), some can be attributed to developer tuning to avoid worse problems (the magic suction of the ball through gates), and some seem to be side effects of the physics engine (the tendency for a ball landing on the top of a slingshot to not bounce but instead very smoothly find the outlane).

 

[neglectoid]

I feel inclined to think that jpelter and squid are right. jpelter because he took 1st place in the first tourney, and squid because he was one of the first people to have marathon games on RBION.

pinball does weird things. during this weekend on the PAPA stream, a ball actually jumped ONTO the top of a slingshot. I have never seen that before, though I have had a ball "Ollie" over my flipper before. also during the PAPA stream a player (Zach sharpe?) had somehow locked all 4 balls in the magnet on metallica. the announcers said something like "you could play a billion games and never see that again"

here is a video of SirMoovenstein playing MM for 3 1/2 hours. http://www.youtube.com/user/SirMoovenstein/videos
I have seen the video a few times (yes, I am a pinball addict) and I didn't notice anything odd. he also has other marathon games on different pins, on his channel if anyone wants to find and point out any inconsistencies.

 

[RetroDude]

From a programmer's perspective, it makes perfect sense.

But adding an algorithm to make these paths screw up things when you reach a certain score? Not bloody likely.

Any function on the playfield that requires a "random" factor could be susceptible to weird behavior.

As I'm sure you well know, implementing true randomness in a computer program is one of the Holy Grails of coding.

It all depends what is used in the code to trigger and implement the randomness. It is conceivable that certain events in playing could affect the results of the pseudo random behavior.

Done on purpose? As you said, not likely. Accidentally? it is a slim, but real possibility.

 

[budtki@verizon.net]

Draino Braino,
i am glad that you are playing TCFTBL, this is the perfect machine to experience what i have tagged "algorythmic level of difficulty" and if you keep playing and persistantly attempt to get multiple superjackpots this phenomena is unavoidable. this is not to say you won't get multiple superjackpots, because you will, but when trying to attain a top ten leaderboard score(the result of your current score plus an awaiting multiplyer maxed superjackpot shot that is ready to yield your top ten leaderboard goal) it almost becomes impossible. nevertheless, it gets down right laughable as you begin to juggle the multiballs(at this most critical time), and inadvertently send one ball to the right loop and it starts playing that circus music, this machine is actually histerical...i've began to think that this machine would have been better named with a circus theme as this is one of the few machines that i actually feel like i am juggling balls(during multiball)-i'll be looking for your high score on this machine. look for mine, i won't stop until i hit an all time top ten score-bobmick1996

 

[budtki@verizon.net]

Squid,
my posting was not intended to blame the machine, nobody's perfect, and i am FAR from it, the soul purpose was to get an acurate response from someone who actually programs these great games, some people replied with comments saying that TPA has nothing to gain by such programming, i beg to differ, i think it's every tables goal to be competitive. such an example of non competitive machine that ultimately becomes undesirable to play can be found on williams pinball collection hall of fame(ps3 disc version)of black knight, once you discover that catching the ballout of the ejector hole with the upper most flipper(the elevated playfield) is the key to almost unlimited scoring, this table becomes insignificant. however, the new version of black knight on TPA does NOT allow this to happen with consistancy.

 

[Squid]

My apologies for toeing the line on acceptable forum behaviour. I'm sure I am one of the violators in question. I do tend to push envelopes at times. It was not my intent to attack Mr.Bud. However, I will throw out a reality check where one might be needed. (This is the curse of the Buddhist )

Mr. Bud, I do hope you find the answers you're looking for. Like others have said, I don't see any reason why a progressive difficulty would be programmed into the game. However, given that TPA is tuned to be easier, I won't entirely discount the possibility. It could be possible in order to discourage endless marathon games.

In order to give your viewpoint a fair shake I will play some Creature when I get some more free time. I stopped playing it because I felt it was way too easy. If you wanna give my viewpoint a fair shake, just be mindful of what kind of state of mind you're in when you're hittin' your high scores. The subtlest of things can make things go south real quick so, try to keep your calm. That's all I do.

Again, my apologies if I have offended anyone.

 

[shutyertrap]

As an experiment, might I suggest this? When you are doing a marathon game, put it on pause for 5 minutes every half hour. This will give your hands and eyes a tiny rest, yet your muscle memory for the game in progress should still be retained. I tend to agree with the idea of choking on the important moments because of a sudden mental brain fart. While my scores are not top 10, I can do marathons on Creature and RBION. With Creature, I choke when going for my 3rd super in a row. I know the cause...my hand is cramping from holding the left flipper up for so damn long (I play the whole multiball with only one ball while the other is cradled). With RBION, I do fine until I realize I've hit the limit for collecting extra balls. My whole frame of playing shifts, I become overly cautious, and this affects my ball handling. With both of these tables, I've noticed some of my best games have been from when I need to pause to do something and then come back to it 10-30 minutes later.

Tell you all what though...I'm going up to FarSight on Friday. I will ask if there is any kind of algorithm in play. I highly doubt it based on other conversations I've had with the guys up there. Still, I'll ask and put this issue to rest.

 

[Fungi]

Tell you all what though...I'm going up to FarSight on Friday.

Going back? Cool, take some more pics for us to decode.