PS3 - Bug Another Lag Thread

[CraigL2112]

It's all in this thread. Basically the game launched with two frames of input lag at 1080p and one frame of lag at 720p; this lag was added to handle processing of the additional lighting effect used in the PS3 version. Late last year they reduced the lag by one frame, so now we're at 1 frame of lag at 1080p, and none at 720p; if you switch your XMB Display Settings to a Custom setting with the 1080 options unchecked--assuming your display device can display 720p--then run the game, you won't have lag.

There have been various claims that certain display devices add their own lag to the game, especially if they aren't set to the device's equivalent of "Game Mode" (ie minimum additional display processing). Reports have generally conflicted and no real list of actual problem devices has been compiled.

I tested running it in 720p last night.. and while the lag isn't completely gone (like on the Vita), it's far more playable than in 1080p.

What's odd, is Zen plays perfectly...........

Oh well. Maybe the PS4 version won't have ANY lag!

-Craig

 

[ER777]

I tested running it in 720p last night.. and while the lag isn't completely gone (like on the Vita), it's far more playable than in 1080p.

What's odd, is Zen plays perfectly...........

Oh well. Maybe the PS4 version won't have ANY lag!

-Craig

The better indicator is PHoF: Williams Collection on PS3 since it outputs to 1080p (Zen only does 720p) and is also made by Farsight of course. Playing PHoF in 1080p on the same TV, same settings, etc. has absolutely zero lag. Of course the same is true of the PS3 version of TPA on some TVs, including the old SD CRT TV I have, and the XBOX 360 apparently doesn't have a problem on any TVs.

So its not just the TV, not just the console, and not just the game, but the combination of all three that sometimes leads to the problem.

This has all been discussed ad nauseam in those other threads that were linked above though.

 

[Wigoutboy]

I've been experimenting with the lag issue on 1080p and comparing to Zen Pinball 2. The problem seems to be TV dependant in most cases. You have to turn all post processing off. Absolutely everything, because every thing that you leave turned on adds more lag. Also if your tv has a game mode, use it. TPA probably adds a minor amount of lag by itself and as confirmed by the developers, but if you are experiencing only this lag and nothing else added by your TV, I have found that the timings for the shots are so close to what I experienced playing on my old CRT that they feel the same and any lag that may be present is not enough to mess up my timings and overall scores.

Conversely, with all or some of the post processing things turned on, the timing for the shots does get messed up and it detracts from the experience a lot. So in this regard I understand the people who have been getting frustrated with the lag on the game.

So to sumarize, use game mode and turn off all post processing on your TV.

If you still experience enough lag to mess up your shots, I think it could mean that your TV has a lot of imput lag.

 

[brakel]

I think you're right in that it is a combination of factors. When I play Zen with my a/v receiver and tv in normal modes I don't notice any flipper lag. When I play TPA in the same circumstances I'm late or miss on almost all shots. If I switch my tv to game and turn off the major video processing of the receiver then I'm on with my timing in TPA. So it is TPA's "fault" from the perspective of playing Zen. But objectively it is a combination of TPA and video processing.

I've been experimenting with the lag issue on 1080p and comparing to Zen Pinball 2. The problem seems to be TV dependant in most cases. You have to turn all post processing off. Absolutely everything, because every thing that you leave turned on adds more lag. Also if your tv has a game mode, use it. TPA probably adds a minor amount of lag by itself and as confirmed by the developers, but if you are experiencing only this lag and nothing else added by your TV, I have found that the timings for the shots are so close to what I experienced playing on my old CRT that they feel the same and any lag that may be present is not enough to mess up my timings and overall scores.

Conversely, with all or some of the post processing things turned on, the timing for the shots does get messed up and it detracts from the experience a lot. So in this regard I understand the people who have been getting frustrated with the lag on the game.

So to sumarize, use game mode and turn off all post processing on your TV.

If you still experience enough lag to mess up your shots, I think it could mean that your TV has a lot of imput lag.

 

[shutyertrap]

As a rule, for whatever you are viewing on your TV, you should turn off all post processing. Read any review on HomeTheater.com and it's the first thing they do. If you are watching a movie with 'smooth motion' or some other similar thing, you are watching wrong (unless you like the soap opera look). All post processing adds things to hide the TV's inherent faults. The better the tv, the less need for these things. If you've ever wondered what the difference between a $1000 60" TV is to a $5000 one, that's gonna be a huge portion of it. Then there's black levels, color reproduction, blah, blah, blah. Point is, turn that crap off!

As has also been pointed out, some TV's are better for games while others are better for movies, and sometimes it'll be great for both. I have both a rear projection CRT HDTV, and an HD computer monitor that I've played TPA on. Apart from that 1 frame, which I don't notice, there is no lag. Guess what...neither of them have any sort of post processing on them. Zen does not use the same dynamic lighting program that FS uses, nor did PHOF. It is unique to TPA on the PS3, and so is the 1 frame of lag. Mike has said he thinks he's cracked that nut, so it should cease to be an issue soon.

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

what about the video options on the PS3 itself like clear whites etc.?

 

[Wigoutboy]

what about the video options on the PS3 itself like clear whites etc.?

I haven't checked, but I really don't think the settings on the PS3 matter, unless you are lowering the resolution to 720p and below. What matters are the settings of the TV and its response time. If for any reason you have a TV with a laggy response time and you add that to the 1 frame lag in TPA, then your shots get all messed up. If you are down to that 1 frame of lag on TPA only, and you're not adding any more lag from your TV, you should be fine.

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

but what if?......

 

[ER777]

I've been experimenting with the lag issue on 1080p and comparing to Zen Pinball 2. The problem seems to be TV dependant in most cases. You have to turn all post processing off. Absolutely everything, because every thing that you leave turned on adds more lag. Also if your tv has a game mode, use it.

Some LCD TVs (particularly Samsungs and some Sony models), even with everything turned off and game mode enabled still have a hard time with TPA's lighting effects. Its fair to say that these sets have a lot of display lag for certain types of effects, while for most sources they're perfectly fine. Its worth noting that the impact is much worse in 1080p than it is in 720p, which has barely noticeable minimal lag for my TVs.

Since Zen only outputs to 720p its not ideal to use for a comparison to TPA at 1080p. That's the only reason I suggested PHoF if you have it.

Zen does not use the same dynamic lighting program that FS uses, nor did PHOF. It is unique to TPA on the PS3, and so is the 1 frame of lag. Mike has said he thinks he's cracked that nut, so it should cease to be an issue soon.

Yes, this is exactly my point. PHoF and Zen's graphical outputs don't trigger some of the lag inducing post-processing on many TVs, while TPA currently does. I very much look forward to that fix Mike has mentioned. If he indeed has solved this problem then it will make a huge difference in playability. I really want to be able to play this game in 1080p on the big TV and have it be just as responsive as it is on the old SD CRT.

 

[netizen]

I have been following this to some extent as i do not own an HDTV and am debating buying a PS4 for TPA in the new year ...

Anyway, here's a resource for input lag comparisons etc of TVs. it;s a couple years old but it gets you started
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/145141/sub-1-frame-hdtv-monitor-input-lag-database

 

[smbhax]

I haven't checked, but I really don't think the settings on the PS3 matter, unless you are lowering the resolution to 720p and below. What matters are the settings of the TV and its response time. If for any reason you have a TV with a laggy response time and you add that to the 1 frame lag in TPA, then your shots get all messed up. If you are down to that 1 frame of lag on TPA only, and you're not adding any more lag from your TV, you should be fine.

They don't, that was all gone over in the previous thread.

 

[andy]

I have a Samsung 60" tv it came out in may this year and with game mode on the pinball tables play great in 1080p I cant see any lag at all apart from that I have left my tv settings has they are.

 

[crazyflipperfingers]

I have a Samsung 60" tv it came out in may this year and with game mode on the pinball tables play great in 1080p I cant see any lag at all apart from that I have left my tv settings has they are.

I have 2 Samsung 46" LED tvs (different models) and both work fine if set to "game mode" on the PS3 HDMI input. I did originally have a problem with the Williams Hall of Fame Collection and that's when I switched the input to game mode, which cleared it up.

 

[ER777]

I have been following this to some extent as i do not own an HDTV and am debating buying a PS4 for TPA in the new year ...

Anyway, here's a resource for input lag comparisons etc of TVs. it;s a couple years old but it gets you started
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/145141/sub-1-frame-hdtv-monitor-input-lag-database

Excellent link, thank you for posting that. If the impending fix doesn't pan out I'll try using the HDMI->VGA output cable for the PS3.

I am jealous of the folks with a TV model that has a properly functioning game mode that really turns off all of the post-processing, but the VGA work-around would do. I'm definitely going to put much more focus on input lag for gaming on the next TV I buy.

 

[brakel]

Some LCD TVs (particularly Samsungs and some Sony models), even with everything turned off and game mode enabled still have a hard time with TPA's lighting effects. Its fair to say that these sets have a lot of display lag for certain types of effects, while for most sources they're perfectly fine. Its worth noting that the impact is much worse in 1080p than it is in 720p, which has barely noticeable minimal lag for my TVs.

That's not how it works. The tv is doing zero processing for dynamic lighting. That is all happening in the PS3. The signal that the PS3 sends to the tv is just the pixel by pixel picture of each screen displayed on your tv. The in game "effects" have absolutely nothing to do with lag in the tv. As far as your tv is concerned the signal that it gets from a game is the same as the signal that it gets from a movie.

 

[ER777]

That's not how it works. The tv is doing zero processing for dynamic lighting. That is all happening in the PS3. The signal that the PS3 sends to the tv is just the pixel by pixel picture of each screen displayed on your tv. The in game "effects" have absolutely nothing to do with lag in the tv. As far as your tv is concerned the signal that it gets from a game is the same as the signal that it gets from a movie.

I disagree. I would agree if you added the assumption of zero post-processing being enabled in the TV, or in other words that only lag in question was the one frame built into TPA's graphics processing. However we're talking about TVs that do have issues with post-processing, meaning that they are changing that input signal between receiving it and displaying it on screen, and experiencing lag beyond that one frame on these TVs.

I believe that the content of the output has to have a huge bearing on what post-processing is triggered within the TV. Think about the dynamic contrast effects, black-level adjustments, and motion smoothing effects that these TVs can do. Those effects would not be possible if the TV didn't examine the content of the pixels from frame to frame. High levels of contrast between light and dark, particularly changing levels of contrast, and high levels of movement will trigger more post-processing affects and adjustments to be made by the TV itself.

If you were correct then there would be nothing that Farsight would be able to change within the game to reduce the "outside" lag, and that would be disappointing. That would also mean that it would be impossible for there to be different levels of lag on different tables in TPA, which there clearly are for me.

It would also mean there there could never be more than 1 frame (the one that is built into the PS3's processing) difference in lag between TPA and PHoF on the same TV at 1080p resolution, and there is a huge difference to me. There's no way that difference is just 1 frame or ~17ms. So based on first-hand observation I have to believe that the content does effect the post-processing greatly.

I would agree that what you're describing is exactly how it works on a monitor with zero post-processing, but not the TVs I'm talking about.

 

[brakel]

TVs ARE doing post processing but it is COMPLETELY unrelated to content. Sending blu-ray movie video from the PS3 to the tv is the same to your tv as sending game video from TPA to your tv. ALL game related processing is done by the PS3. After that it is just a video stream like any other. If you don't want to believe me then there is plenty of information out there about what data is and isn't transmitted via HDMI.

I do agree that there must be more lag in TPA than the two frames that TPA has discovered. One they fixed and the other they think they can fix. Might there be one more that they haven't discovered?

I disagree. I would agree if you added the assumption of zero post-processing being enabled in the TV, or in other words that only lag in question was the one frame built into TPA's graphics processing. However we're talking about TVs that do have issues with post-processing, meaning that they are changing that input signal between receiving it and displaying it on screen, and experiencing lag beyond that one frame on these TVs.

I believe that the content of the output has to have a huge bearing on what post-processing is triggered within the TV. Think about the dynamic contrast effects, black-level adjustments, and motion smoothing effects that these TVs can do. Those effects would not be possible if the TV didn't examine the content of the pixels from frame to frame. High levels of contrast between light and dark, particularly changing levels of contrast, and high levels of movement will trigger more post-processing affects and adjustments to be made by the TV itself.

If you were correct then there would be nothing that Farsight would be able to change within the game to reduce the "outside" lag, and that would be disappointing. That would also mean that it would be impossible for there to be different levels of lag on different tables in TPA, which there clearly are for me.

It would also mean there there could never be more than 1 frame (the one that is built into the PS3's processing) difference in lag between TPA and PHoF on the same TV at 1080p resolution, and there is a huge difference to me. There's no way that difference is just 1 frame or ~17ms. So based on first-hand observation I have to believe that the content does effect the post-processing greatly.

I would agree that what you're describing is exactly how it works on a monitor with zero post-processing, but not the TVs I'm talking about.

 

[ER777]

When I'm saying content I'm not saying anything new or different is getting transmitted over the HDMI cable, or that the TV is sensing what the source is like game versus movie. I'm only talking about the complexity of the image data that its receiving and how the TVs internal processors react to it. A blank white screen would certainly trigger less adjustments to be made by the TV's post-processing than an image with lots of pixels changing drastically each frame, and in high contrast to the other pixels around them. I'm just saying that I think the complexity of TPA's images from frame to frame could be bogging down the post-processing in some TVs.

If I'm wrong then then I don't see any possible explanation how these two things can both be true:

1- Some TVs running TPA at 1080p show no signs of extra lag being introduced besides that one frame.
2- The same TV and settings can run PHoF with zero perceivable lag in 1080p but then run TPA with very noticeable lag.

If you give me another explanation for how one thing that produces a tiny bit of lag, paired with another thing that produces a tiny bit of lag, can together produce a whole bunch of lag greater than the sum of the two parts then I will gladly admit I'm wrong.

 

[brakel]

Ok, thanks. I understand what you mean. I suppose that's possible. I always think of tv processing as pretty dumb. The smoothing types of processing I know just apply to the whole picture no matter what the content.

This is my theory to your two points:
1) some tvs are adding little or no lag.
2) the lag in TPA is pushing the lag that most people have in their existing tvs and a/v systems from not perceptible into the perceptible zone. My theory is that there is a threshold of lag that people can tolerate. Its probably different for everyone and people have probably already gotten used to their own system's lag.

When I'm saying content I'm not saying anything new or different is getting transmitted over the HDMI cable, or that the TV is sensing what the source is like game versus movie. I'm only talking about the complexity of the image data that its receiving and how the TVs internal processors react to it. A blank white screen would certainly trigger less adjustments to be made by the TV's post-processing than an image with lots of pixels changing drastically each frame, and in high contrast to the other pixels around them. I'm just saying that I think the complexity of TPA's images from frame to frame could be bogging down the post-processing in some TVs.

If I'm wrong then then I don't see any possible explanation how these two things can both be true:

1- Some TVs running TPA at 1080p show no signs of extra lag being introduced besides that one frame.
2- The same TV and settings can run PHoF with zero perceivable lag in 1080p but then run TPA with very noticeable lag.

If you give me another explanation for how one thing that produces a tiny bit of lag, paired with another thing that produces a tiny bit of lag, can together produce a whole bunch of lag greater than the sum of the two parts then I will gladly admit I'm wrong.

 

[ER777]

Ok, I'm in definite agreement on point one and I have to admit that what you're saying is a reasonable explanation for point two. I suppose that the small TV component and small TPA component of the lag when added together could just be pushing me over my perception threshold where it starts to feel very noticeable. Even though it feels like its greater than the sum of the parts I can't quantify it so it could just be my perception of it.

So I'll concede that there's a decent chance I'm wrong about the interaction with the TV's post-processing, since you have provided the alternate explanation.