Any news on sound improvement?

[slowtide]

I know this is probably not a top priority issue for most players, but I was really hoping farsight would eventually work on the genereal sound presentation of the game.
Everything sounds lo-fi, undynamic and monaural, almost like an early 90s pinball simulation.

- Most mechanical sounds seem to be sampled at an incredibly low sample-rate and in mono. It would make a huge difference for realism, if they upped the sample rate and provided stereo samples (or at least stereo positioning of the mono samples). Many sounds also suffer from a lack of force/dynamics (bumpers, flippers, knocker) and variation.

- From what I can tell, it seems that all music cues and sfx played by the pinball hardware were recorded from the original machines in the room using a mic/field recorder with varying quality and in mono. That would explain the music looping issues and overlaying samples being cut off. Has there been word from farsight why they didn't use sound emulation? Especially PS4, XboxOne and PC should provide enough CPU-Power. Or was the programming too complex?

I'm on Ps4 and maybe the situation on PC is different.

 

[soundwave106]

Everything sounds lo-fi, undynamic and monaural, almost like an early 90s pinball simulation.

One issue here is that this *is* how most pinballs were back in the day... especially for PCM type stuff. Williams DCS was one of the better of the lots, with mono 32kHz compressed sounds. Yet that's still not very "hi fi". Data East was done in stereo, but with notably worse fidelity in samples (according to this, 24kHz for White Star -- and even though it was stereo, most of the stuff was mono anyways). Earlier pinballs used compressed 8 bit samples and FM synthesizer music.

Stern pinballs *just* got stereo a couple years ago (with SPIKE) if I recall. So aside from a few very new games (and scratchy Data East stuff ), the main opportunity for stereo samples would be the mechanical elements.

There's an earlier thread that I've Googled that contains a note from the emulation guy that not emulating DCS etc. was done for performance reasons, and that recording (at least at the time) sounded better anyways. My speculation is if there was a possible area that emulation would help IMHO, it's the FM synthesizer stuff. The Yamaha chips they used should not be too intensive to emulate, and a few of the 1980s games (Black Knight 2K, High Speed, etc.) do seem to be a bit rough sounding to me. The samples are always going to be rough but the FM doesn't have to be.

I am on PC and I think the PC version has usually sounded pretty good, I have no complaints with any of the modern pins (DCS and Stern). I have heard from others that the PS4 version is a lot rougher for some reason. Maybe they have to compress for space reasons or something?

 

[Rudy Yagov]

The mechanical sounds have always been pretty low quality. They've done very little to improve them over the years. Even if they just got better sounds for flippers and bumpers, I'd see that as a big step up.

 

[Wolis]

Thus is like asking when Minecraft will improve its graphics.

What with a bowling alley behind you and Jo Cocker singing Cocane from some speaker over head, we were lucky to hear any sounds from these glorious machines.

Any sound came from roughly straight ahead so mono seems just right.

Mind you that thump or bell when you got a Special did seem to mostly come from the left

 

[GET]

I know this is probably not a top priority issue for most players, but I was really hoping farsight would eventually work on the genereal sound presentation of the game.
Everything sounds lo-fi, undynamic and monaural, almost like an early 90s pinball simulation.

- Most mechanical sounds seem to be sampled at an incredibly low sample-rate and in mono. It would make a huge difference for realism, if they upped the sample rate and provided stereo samples (or at least stereo positioning of the mono samples). Many sounds also suffer from a lack of force/dynamics (bumpers, flippers, knocker) and variation.

- From what I can tell, it seems that all music cues and sfx played by the pinball hardware were recorded from the original machines in the room using a mic/field recorder with varying quality and in mono. That would explain the music looping issues and overlaying samples being cut off. Has there been word from farsight why they didn't use sound emulation? Especially PS4, XboxOne and PC should provide enough CPU-Power. Or was the programming too complex?

I'm on Ps4 and maybe the situation on PC is different.

Also, some tables have slightly higher pitched audio and sound effects most notably on Attack from Mars, Monster Bash, Cactus Canyon, and STTNG.

 

[Pinballwiz45b]

Also, some tables have slightly higher pitched audio and sound effects most notably on Attack from Mars, Monster Bash, Cactus Canyon, and STTNG.

Thank you! I'm so happy that I'm not the only one noticing this.

I have mentioned it in my Master List, but there's another thread that explains the issue:

http://digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/8586-Higher-pitched-music-sounds-Reboot

Comparison in Audacity:

I ripped the audio directly from the game, even though I did it in 44100Hz. That shouldn't be the main difference. The difference is when you compare both tracks and note the source (the top being from Planetary Pinball).

 

[slowtide]

Some of you may have gotton me wrong on this: My problem is not with the way these machines sound in real life, but with the way farsight seems to record them for the game.

The mechanical sounds have always been pretty low quality. They've done very little to improve them over the years. Even if they just got better sounds for flippers and bumpers, I'd see that as a big step up.

Exactly, that's my main gripe! Flippers, bumpers and the sound of the rolling ball are the sounds you hear most often during gameplay. But all of those are of very low quality. This might be a compromise for low-end mobile platforms and maybe possible game/download size issues. But most supported gaming platforms do not have these technical restrictions. The mechanical sound should be of high quality, varied, and if possible in stereo. That's the way they sound in real life. Other current pinball games sound so much better in that regard.

Of course, I know that the sound hardware of most pinball tables didn't sound very good in the first place. I've played quite a few of the original tables over the years and the the sound coming from the speakers is often thin and muffled.
Farsight seems to use a field recorder to record the sound off these machines "in the room", rather than emulating the sound hardware or capturing the audio directly from the board. And even if the machines themselves were mono (as most of them were), if you place them in a room you get room ambience from the reflected sound that you can record in stereo which really adds to the realism. However, like the mechanical sounds, those recordings/soundfiles in the game seem to be of rather low quality/bitrate and mono.

 

[Byte]

Flippers, bumpers and the sound of the rolling ball are the sounds you hear most often during gameplay. But all of those are of very low quality. (...) The mechanical sound should be of high quality, varied, and if possible in stereo. That's the way they sound in real life.

What the issue is, I think, if that's a bumper on the far right of the table, it should sound like it's on the far right and a bumber on the far left, on the left. Not a generic bumper in the middle?

 

[Byte]

[MENTION=1051]Pinballwiz45b[/MENTION] Looking at the peaks on those Audacity graphs, looks like the 2 samples are inverted (what's on the top side of the one, is on the bottom on the other)?

 

[Pinballwiz45b]

Looking at the peaks on those Audacity graphs, looks like the 2 samples are inverted (what's on the top side of the one, is on the bottom on the other)?

The two are completely different clips; the top I pulled directly from Planetary Pinball's Monster Bash sound page. Downloaded and imported over.

The bottom is recorded straight from Pinball Arcade. I'm not sure how it got inverted (might have been at the time of recording the game audio, since it is a 2012 release), but it is how it is until work is done on tables like these.

https://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/Williams/games/bash/sounds.htm

EDIT: Now you have me interested. I'd like to see if any other tables have inversions like this, of which are not affected.

 

[MadAxeMan]

the two audio files have different sample rates.
it IS the difference you are seeing.
I would speculate Audacity's sample rate conversion is the issue (the top was converted to 44.1hz).
if you want to compare apples to apples, it needs to be the same sample rate.
I am a sample developer by trade (Dang, for 20 years now, time flies)

 

[Dan]

Totally agree that the sound needs a complete overhaul or at least the option to balance mechanical vs electronic sounds. Visited an arcade recently and I really enjoyed the mechanical sounds. In PA's Eightball Deluxe, there is a constant drone and you can barely hear the flippers or the bumpers. Come on Farsight team, you can do better, the sound is really important!