Best Physics Yet: Jacks Open and Centigrade

[Ben Logan]

Snob alert -- As an owner of two real pinball machines, a huge VPX and Pro Pinball fan, and a more than moderate Zaccarria ME enthusiast, I've been pretty vocal about dissatisfaction with the TPA ball physics engine (TPA flipper physics are GREAT, btw, with the exception of phony live-catch). I'm thankful to the members of this forum for allowing me to be constructively critical. My intentions are positive. TPA as tremendous potential to live up to their "Real Pinball" in the box claim, if only they'd address their grossly unrealistic ball physics.

I was really excited when TPA announced that they'd finally be updating their ball physics engine with the announcement of SPA. They quickly backpedaled. Boo! Please invest in the most important aspect of your simulation, FS!

I stopped buying TPA tables altogether after Season Three. I'd had enough of railroad return lanes and pong-like predictablily / lack of backspin (despite nice DX11 lighting improvements).

Then Jacks Open and Centigrade came along. These two tables have renewed my interest in TPA. Someone at FS actually took a small chance here. I don't believe the physics engine has changed. But, the ball feels just a bit more wild. No railroads. Slope is admirably steep for EMs. Lots of bounce from rubbers. These tables are actually challenging (although their real life counterparts that I just played for hours last week in Las Vegas at the Pinball Hall of Fame were fantastically more brutal!).

I sincerely hope you FS guys will consider releasing more EMs. I know that EM sales-rate is lower than your SS or DMD games. But I can imagine the licenses come at a lower cost. You guys did a fantastic job with this last EM two pack. Keep 'EM (pun intended) coming!

May I suggest: ABRA CA DABRE!

 

[Jeff Strong]

Great post, man.

..and I absolutely LOVE Abra Ca Dabra! Last time I was in Vegas, I played the snot out of that one and didn't want to leave it.

 

[Ben Logan]

Awesome, Jeff. Right with you! When I walked into the Hall of Fame this guy to the left of me and I both put our twenty dollar bills into the change machines at the same time. He looked over at me and said, "YEAH!" with a big smile on his face. A couple of pinball nerds!

That place is a true gift to the pinball community. The staff is friendly and fun loving. Heck - even the bathroom were sparkling clean. Every pinball enthusiast should treat him or herself to a visit. Worth a plane ticket!

Kudos to FS for capturing just a little bit of the "ball is wild" spirit with these latest two EMs. Keep it wild, FS!

 

[wolfson]

right on boys !!!Abra Ca Dabra,spot on fond memories !!!!

 

[QuickAceItsA2ndChance]

I'm not that knowledgeable about EM tables (my earliest memory of a table I can recall is KISS from the late 70s) but I've enjoyed playing JO and C37 a great deal in TPA. And I'd be happy to buy more EM tables through TPA.

Glad to hear the physics are improving. The more realism, the better!

 

[Heretic]

ding ding

 

[Russell Bergman]

Abra Ca Dabra is a fantastic table, and a great tournament table. I request it often. Other EM's I'd love to see is Space Mission, Gottlieb's Royal Flush (1976), Spirit of '76, Slick Chick, Humpty Dumpty, Knockout, and for my FarSight Pinball Hall of Fame OCD....Ace High and Jive Time.

 

[BigDaddy557]

I dont guess Countdown would be an EM ? I would still love to see it on TPA

 

[Blkthorne]

Looking at some of the EM tables on Pinside website, was kind of curious what other people felt were some of the top ones in the history of pinball? Seemed like more of a consensus picks for SS tables were Addams Family, Medieval Madness and Indiana Jones etc. but whenever you looked at EM listings it would be all over the map, usually I would just look at ones with 40+ people rating them. The ones I kind of thought looked cool were Abra Ca Dabra, World Fair, Atlantis, Wizard!, Slick Chick and Surf Champ/Surfer.

 

[QuickAceItsA2ndChance]

I crumbled today and bought the Fireball/El Dorado pack, partly as a vote for more EM tables. Fireball is a sneaky SOB!

 

[BStarfire]

The pinside/ipdb ratings have fluctuated greatly over the years and you can see an effect of higher production em's ranking lower as collectors markets exert an influence.

However, having reviewed them for over ten years combined with pinballowners site's list of owned and wanted games, I put forth these lists:

Multi-player games: Royal Flush, Spirit of 76, Jack in the Box. These also are the three with the highest production runs for Gottlieb (Big Shot/Hot Shot #4). Follow ups would be Surf Champ and then it diverges into subjective preference pretty quick.

For single-player: Atlantis, Jacks Open, C37, El Dorado, Abracadabra, Buccaneer.

Combining a multi-player with a single player would make the following good future choices before opinions diverge:

Royal Flush, Atlantis
Spirit of 76, Abracadabra
Jack in the Box, Buccaneer
Surf Champ, various choices, maybe Kingpin.


Actually, should swap Royal Flush and SO76 so that each pair not only has a multi and single, but a symmetric and assymetric (so SO76/Atlantis and Royal Flush/Abracadabra as the next two packs).

The above is for 70's. The 60's is a whole 'nother ball game.

 

[Ben Logan]

Great info, Bstar. I'm currently obsessed with Loserman72's VP9 version of Atlantis.

Congrats on living in Vegas. If I were a young man without a family, I'd seriously move there just for the Pinball Hall of Fame. It's that great! How often do you get to visit?

I'm wondering who to thank at FS for Jacks Open and Centigrade. These are seriously different, and really showcase what can be done with the FS engine with ball left as wild as possible. Great elasticity, nice slope, no railroads whatsoever.

Why don't all FS games play like these? These two don't play exactly like real EMs, but I don't need them to. They're seriously fun games unto themselves. Much closer to true pinball sim for FS than ever, nonetheless. Approaching Pro Pinball for the first time ever.

 

[Kolchak357]

The pinside/ipdb ratings have fluctuated greatly over the years and you can see an effect of higher production em's ranking lower as collectors markets exert an influence.

However, having reviewed them for over ten years combined with pinballowners site's list of owned and wanted games, I put forth these lists:

Multi-player games: Royal Flush, Spirit of 76, Jack in the Box. These also are the three with the highest production runs for Gottlieb (Big Shot/Hot Shot #4). Follow ups would be Surf Champ and then it diverges into subjective preference pretty quick.

For single-player: Atlantis, Jacks Open, C37, El Dorado, Abracadabra, Buccaneer.

Combining a multi-player with a single player would make the following good future choices before opinions diverge:

Royal Flush, Atlantis
Spirit of 76, Abracadabra
Jack in the Box, Buccaneer
Surf Champ, various choices, maybe Kingpin.


Actually, should swap Royal Flush and SO76 so that each pair not only has a multi and single, but a symmetric and assymetric (so SO76/Atlantis and Royal Flush/Abracadabra as the next two packs).

The above is for 70's. The 60's is a whole 'nother ball game.

Your EM list has many of my favorites. We must have grown up in the same arcade.
I would love an EM pack of Surf Champ with Buccaneer.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

I saw a PAPA video of Surf Champ (or a variant, I think the 4-player version?) and it looked intriguing, with the 5 rollovers in the middle of the playfield. I'd go for that.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Joker Poker is one of the best of all time, imo. The SS version was more widely produced since the EM came out right at the end of the EM era, so that makes the EM version even more of a rare gem (only 820 produced vs. 9,280 of the SS produced).

 

[BStarfire]

Joker Poker is a good game, but I usually leave it out of the equation when thinking about EM's because the SS version is the 'main' one. I also thought there were some slight rules differences between the EM and SS also. I've never actually seen an EM Joker Poker.

To the original post... I think Farsight's EM's are the best playing of any of the digital versions I've tried. Not by a small margin, but by a lot. Physics, geometry, flow, and rules are far and away better than any other attempts that I've come across.

I also think that even if EM's sell fewer than DMD's, now is the time to put out a few more since the Stern app will cover more modern machines. I also think EM's serve as somewhat of a "loss leader" as several people I've talked into trying TPA (with only VP/FP backgrounds) were resistant because they had to pay and they were familiar with their own platform, but the additional EM's available got them to try and now they've even starting purchasing the other tables (Solid states) as they prefer it to whatever they were using (I've lost track of which VP is the main one now - I gave up on it). With Farsight partnering up for commercial cabinet products, having some more EM's will really give it the edge. Most of the big ticket SS's are in-game - fill out another 4 or 6 classical EM's and no one can compete. Plus, more variety generates more interest and I think many people, once some of their favorites are in-game, are more likely to explore and purchase other tables (or as I like to think, I can relax once a table I really wanted is available and can casually explore and buy some other ones I might not have).

Just a few more EM packs will cover the cream of the crop of 70's Gottlieb's, and then TPA will have the best versions of games from all era's - people will move from the "free" VP/FP platforms to the better product and be willing to pay for the quality.

Hope we see a couple more EM packs over the next 10 months (SO76 - Atlantis, Royal Flush - Abracadabra [or Buccaneer]...Jack in the Box/Surf Champ).

 

[Jeff Strong]

The SS version of Joker Poker essentially plays like an EM with digital sounds since it's still the same playfield layout. It may have a couple different rules, but the gameplay feel is of course exactly the same as the EM.

Do the Farsight EMs really play better than the VP versions? I've only tried the demos so far (been too busy with other games), but I know they do play faster than real EMs and the VP version of Jacks Open is pretty awesome in terms of capturing the EM feel.

That said, definitely agree with the sentiment: bring on more EM packs! Great to hear the physics have improved so much.

I always found it funny that they said EMs don't sell as well, yet tons of people have requested them here and on their FB page. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Farsight unfortunately picked less popular EMs early on. Just imagine if we'd gotten Royal Flush instead of Central Park for instance. Also the EM version of El Dorado probably would've been played more and more well received had it been released instead of the initial SS version. Don't blame the customers for your poor business decisions lol

 

[Ben Logan]

A lot of VP EMs play great. Different authors have different takes on physics, which I think is a big part of the fun. For VP9, Pinuck's tables are outstanding. Still among my all time faves. For VPX, Borgdog is delivering the EM goods. These are just two examples. If any of you guys have VP installation questions, the community at VPForums is really responsive. We love new members and will get you up and running!

I don't believe the FS physics engine has changed with these two tables, but the tuning is WAY better. El Dorado and Hot Shot majorly leave me wishing we had some control over the slope. They're just too floaty! Central Park is nice to look at, but mini-flipper EMs aren't high on my list.

I'm with you guys: Hoping for more FS EMs, tuned for action! I really like the picks on this thread.