BlahCade 119: Gaps in Storage

[jaredmorgs]

http://blahcadepinball.com/2017/11/30/Episode-119-Gaps-in-Storage.html

After two false starts, we get right into the swing of the podcast with a decent amount of stuff.
There’s the usual talk around this time of month about Pinball Arcade’s table release and next game clue.
Then we enter speculation mode about whether Farsight will do another Bugfixapalooza at the end of this season.
Jared also has a golden opportunity for folks with too many pinballs wanting a safe place to store them.

 

[relaxation]

Props for mentioning the brightness & display factor, a few months back I responded to someone elses thread on steam about brightness and the short of it was...

'An 80s incandescant flash lamp had a range of 116~163W peak lumens, meanwhile my monitor set a 42 of 100 brightness measured only 120 lumens, but if my monitor was set to 100 of 100 brightness it could hit 267 lumens. I've no idea what modern table lightning measures at as a comparison.

When (non-oled) monitors are set at a higher brightness their blackpoint [how dark black is] rises.. meaning a really dark shade of black might be a few steps higher in shade. As an example I thought pbw45bs' streams were too dim when played with lowest room lighting but in reality his monitors blackpoint was higher than mine.'
lowering room lighting compensates the rise in blackpoint when brightness is cranked

The other thing touched on was detail crushing brightness, if/when we switch to HDR.. perhaps we can still have the brightness but not get the color washed away.. which may be SDRs fault. Perhaps it is a coincidence...

It is worth pointing out that due to the logarithmic response of the human eye to changes in light levels, the present day SDR (Standard Dynamic Range) Rec709 'standard' of 100 nits is actually around 50% of the peak HDR 10,000 nits level.
-http://www.murideo.com/news/archives/07-2016

... that TPA is set to 50% by default.

I don't think this excuses farsight on crushing details when pre-80s tables are the topic, should easily fall within the current SDR format.

I don't major in lighting or anything, I could be well offbase, so if anyone else knows any better please enlighten us

 

[mmmagnetic]

"It may even be almost good" - Jared Morgs


Speaking of lighting, before Pinball Arcade came out I bought the Williams collection on Nintendo 3DS, and that game had an issue that I never realized before could be an actual problem: The game was incredibly dark. So dark that I had to always keep the handheld at max brightness to even see it properly, thus needlessly burning through battery. It felt like they never actually tested the game on the original hardware. This is the only game I have ever seen this issue with.

---

On the Zen vs TPA for newcomers topic, what I always found very weird is that while Zen is more flashy and attractive to the new player, the tables are all so incredibly complex and hard to get a grasp on that they take a long time to actually learn.

I started getting interested in pinball in that exact time period where TPA was first released, and started Zen with tables like Blade or Earth Defense, and I still don´t really know what you are actually supposed to DO in these games.

On the other hand, most tables in TPA are actually very easy to understand, with big bright bulbs showing you the way, good voice callouts, jingles that update you on whats happening and helpful DMD design. Take Attack From Mars for example, you could teach an absolute newbie about basics like ball trapping and aiming and then just say "try to hit the saucer as often as possible". Or hitting the head in Circus Voltaire. Or building up the monsters in Monster Bash.

Zen basically has no "simple" tables like that. Probably the closest to that is the South Park Butters table - with spelling ramps and a relatively simple mode start. But most of them are visually overwhelming, with tons of stuff going on the DMD, timers ticking down, and very little audio help.

I guess the biggest reason for that is that in TPA, the tables have been designed by industry legends with tons of experience, in a genre that took decades and decades to slowly evolve from simple wood boards with pins in them to the massive hunks of flashing lights and ramps we have today. Every element had time to get more and more refined.

In contrast, Zen always feels to me like they started with "pinball tables have tons of ramps and stuff on them, and modes and multiball and crap that flies across the table and pumping music" without thinking much about how someone new to the table - or pinball in general - would approach such a table.

And yeah, the unhelpful DMD in Zen tables is easily the biggest symptom of this problem. In most real tables they figured out over decades how information should be delivered to a player who is currently busy not losing the ball, via inserts, audio cues or lights flashing. But on Zen I constantly feel like I should have my eyes glued to the tiny screen in order to get an update on what´s actually happening.

I feel that Zen are getting better at this over time, though. Tables like Tesla or V12 are almost impenetrable, and I distinctly remember having very little idea how the Shaman or El Dorada tables were actually structured, since there was so much stuff going on with very little playfield design guiding my eyes. Newer tables have bigger inserts and more helpful playfield graphics, like Back To The Future for instance - with large arrows pointing to the respective shots.

I just sometimes feel like they focus too much on packing their tables with complicated features and intricate design without paying much attention to actual, well, "user experience design".

I still love Pinball FX and their designs are definitely showing clear improvements over time. The actual design of the program is brilliant as well.

 

[Gorgias32]

Good commentary in this episode on the excellence of Zen's community features.

I'm glad we live in a world with both TPA and Zen. They are both excellent platforms. I do find myself typically coming back to TPA for "quick fix" (you can get a fun experience playing El Dorado EM or Diner or F14 and be done in 5 minutes), and avoiding the super long-paying TPA tables, but if I have more time to spend I go to Zen for the depth.

I'm really looking forward to FX3 features coming to mobile; the Bethesda standalone app that has some early versions of FX3 features (i.e. 5 minute challenges with a target score to earn points) has had me playing those tables way more than I did in the main Zen app where I paid for them, and that's just a tiny subset of the community features in FX3.

As far as the lighting and graphical issues in the new EMs in TPA, I get that Chris is a professional cameraman and those types of things drive professionals crazy, but I had honestly not noticed them - I really do like Wild Card a lot from a layout/rules/physics standpoint, it's a great addition to the collection. My dad is a retired graphic designer and he is the same, I remember growing up he would see an ad in a magazine and it would make him crazy because some graphical element was out of whack.

 

[shutyertrap]

Props for mentioning the brightness & display factor, a few months back I responded to someone elses thread on steam about brightness and the short of it was...

'An 80s incandescant flash lamp had a range of 116~163W peak lumens, meanwhile my monitor set a 42 of 100 brightness measured only 120 lumens, but if my monitor was set to 100 of 100 brightness it could hit 267 lumens. I've no idea what modern table lightning measures at as a comparison.

When (non-oled) monitors are set at a higher brightness their blackpoint [how dark black is] rises.. meaning a really dark shade of black might be a few steps higher in shade. As an example I thought pbw45bs' streams were too dim when played with lowest room lighting but in reality his monitors blackpoint was higher than mine.'
lowering room lighting compensates the rise in blackpoint when brightness is cranked

The other thing touched on was detail crushing brightness, if/when we switch to HDR.. perhaps we can still have the brightness but not get the color washed away.. which may be SDRs fault. Perhaps it is a coincidence...

... that TPA is set to 50% by default.

I don't think this excuses farsight on crushing details when pre-80s tables are the topic, should easily fall within the current SDR format.

I don't major in lighting or anything, I could be well offbase, so if anyone else knows any better please enlighten us

I think you've got a pretty good handle on it! I'm a camera assistant for motion pictures and television. I hear lighting discussions every day I work. It is an absolute sin to let details get lost in either blacks or whites. It's all about the highlights in black and the contrast in white. Without those, everything looks flat and uninteresting to the eye. That is why I don't believe FarSight has anyone at the studio with the least bit of knowledge about lighting. When DX11 came out, there were absurd 'choices' made, where things were being lit up that couldn't possibly have light hitting them. Coin doors were glowing, tops of plastics had spotlights, it is where my hypothesis it was all being done by a lighting filter came into being. Farsight needs to hire someone from Pixar to give them a few pointers.

 

[shutyertrap]

"It may even be almost good" - Jared Morgs


Speaking of lighting, before Pinball Arcade came out I bought the Williams collection on Nintendo 3DS, and that game had an issue that I never realized before could be an actual problem: The game was incredibly dark. So dark that I had to always keep the handheld at max brightness to even see it properly, thus needlessly burning through battery. It felt like they never actually tested the game on the original hardware. This is the only game I have ever seen this issue with.

---

On the Zen vs TPA for newcomers topic, what I always found very weird is that while Zen is more flashy and attractive to the new player, the tables are all so incredibly complex and hard to get a grasp on that they take a long time to actually learn.

I started getting interested in pinball in that exact time period where TPA was first released, and started Zen with tables like Blade or Earth Defense, and I still don´t really know what you are actually supposed to DO in these games.

On the other hand, most tables in TPA are actually very easy to understand, with big bright bulbs showing you the way, good voice callouts, jingles that update you on whats happening and helpful DMD design. Take Attack From Mars for example, you could teach an absolute newbie about basics like ball trapping and aiming and then just say "try to hit the saucer as often as possible". Or hitting the head in Circus Voltaire. Or building up the monsters in Monster Bash.

Zen basically has no "simple" tables like that. Probably the closest to that is the South Park Butters table - with spelling ramps and a relatively simple mode start. But most of them are visually overwhelming, with tons of stuff going on the DMD, timers ticking down, and very little audio help.

I guess the biggest reason for that is that in TPA, the tables have been designed by industry legends with tons of experience, in a genre that took decades and decades to slowly evolve from simple wood boards with pins in them to the massive hunks of flashing lights and ramps we have today. Every element had time to get more and more refined.

In contrast, Zen always feels to me like they started with "pinball tables have tons of ramps and stuff on them, and modes and multiball and crap that flies across the table and pumping music" without thinking much about how someone new to the table - or pinball in general - would approach such a table.

And yeah, the unhelpful DMD in Zen tables is easily the biggest symptom of this problem. In most real tables they figured out over decades how information should be delivered to a player who is currently busy not losing the ball, via inserts, audio cues or lights flashing. But on Zen I constantly feel like I should have my eyes glued to the tiny screen in order to get an update on what´s actually happening.

I feel that Zen are getting better at this over time, though. Tables like Tesla or V12 are almost impenetrable, and I distinctly remember having very little idea how the Shaman or El Dorada tables were actually structured, since there was so much stuff going on with very little playfield design guiding my eyes. Newer tables have bigger inserts and more helpful playfield graphics, like Back To The Future for instance - with large arrows pointing to the respective shots.

I just sometimes feel like they focus too much on packing their tables with complicated features and intricate design without paying much attention to actual, well, "user experience design".

I still love Pinball FX and their designs are definitely showing clear improvements over time. The actual design of the program is brilliant as well.

Nice perspective on the newcomer angle. There truly have not been any Zen tables that I didn't have to look up the instructions at some point on. I only JUST figured out what I'm supposed to do with Tesla, but the mode start shot is brutally difficult to hit. I am right there with you about real pinball evolving over time to be what it is, and Zen thinking they can just jump right in without understanding the learned nuances.

 

[shutyertrap]

As far as the lighting and graphical issues in the new EMs in TPA, I get that Chris is a professional cameraman and those types of things drive professionals crazy, but I had honestly not noticed them - I really do like Wild Card a lot from a layout/rules/physics standpoint, it's a great addition to the collection. My dad is a retired graphic designer and he is the same, I remember growing up he would see an ad in a magazine and it would make him crazy because some graphical element was out of whack.

Here's the thing, now that I've pointed it out does it bother you? Because I'm one of those people that once you see a thing, you can't unsee it. Like Julia Robert's throbbing forehead vein or the stormtrooper that whacks his head on the doorway. Often times we seemingly aren't bothered by something, but at the same time we know something isn't quite right. I'm just putting my finger on it.

 

[Gorgias32]

Here's the thing, now that I've pointed it out does it bother you? Because I'm one of those people that once you see a thing, you can't unsee it. Like Julia Robert's throbbing forehead vein or the stormtrooper that whacks his head on the doorway. Often times we seemingly aren't bothered by something, but at the same time we know something isn't quite right. I'm just putting my finger on it.

Yeah, pretty much - now I can't un-see it.

 

[relaxation]

I hear lighting discussions every day I work. It is an absolute sin to let details get lost in either blacks or whites.

Here's an interesting question, in TV&Film you may want your display pleasing to watch but a large feature on tables is the sensory assault to the eyes.. so should virtual pinball the player set thier displays to emulate a real machine?

I think light calibration should start in-game first, as you pointed out before, the early era games shouldn't be going nuclear like later games but I think this might be a techinical issue with how their lighting 'mixes' layers. I've posted about this before where I show a 'lightmap' and the un-lit texture map but I suspected a photoeditors mixing algorithms might be too taxing for a videogame, or atleast.. a videogame with this many lightsources affecting so much on the playfield.

I haven't touched fx3 yet so I'm curious if theirs is prebaked tricks or not
I hated FX2s slings with their light flashes where everything burns white

 

[shutyertrap]

Here's an interesting question, in TV&Film you may want your display pleasing to watch but a large feature on tables is the sensory assault to the eyes.. so should virtual pinball the player set thier displays to emulate a real machine?

But that's just it, you can't get it to match. In real life, if an insert is lit, it's still legible. No matter how bright you make the lights in game, you'll never duplicate the assault of strobes on a real table without putting in a false whiteout frame of animation. I played a fully LED'd Last Action Hero at someone's place with all the lights turned off, and there were moments when it was like flash bulbs going off and you had no prayer of tracking the ball flying out of a scoop. So long as those flashers weren't going off though, you could read every single lit insert. When we eventually did turn the lights on in the room, the table lights were still just as effective, only now you could clearly see the table art.