BlahCade #156: Williams Pinball Volume 2: Release Retrospective

[jaredmorgs]

Zen Studios released a Twitch video right after they announced the Volume 2 packs.


It let everyone get a look at the tables, which means that we can talk freely about the tables.


Join us for a deep-dive into some of the aspects of the tables in Volume 2, and listen to us speculate on what appeared to be a co-ordinated visit between Stern (Gomez and Eddie) to Budapest.


See https://blahcadepinball.com/156-williams-vol-2-retro for detailed show notes and all the stuff you expect me to shove in there.

 

[wilbers]

New tables look fun.

Interesting wild speculation there - wonder how long Farsight's license with Stern lasts for, forward planning for 2021 or 2022? Maybe that is the only way Simpsons pinball party will be done, seems even less likely that Farsight will make it now than a couple of years ago, and Zen already have 4 tables from Fox.

 

[shutyertrap]

New tables look fun.

Interesting wild speculation there - wonder how long Farsight's license with Stern lasts for, forward planning for 2021 or 2022? Maybe that is the only way Simpsons pinball party will be done, seems even less likely that Farsight will make it now than a couple of years ago, and Zen already have 4 tables from Fox.

If everything is on a 2 year cycle with FarSight, 2020 would be when the Stern license is up. That of course doesn't mean Stern can't do what Scientific Games did, which is make a deal early with Zen so they can get things in the pipeline. Stern might also take a different approach with Zen where they allow the tables to continue being sold in TPA, just not any new tables be made. I said in the podcast back in September that I think the picture would be much clearer in 6 months time, based entirely on what FarSight puts out. If there are no new tables by March 2019, or even an announcement of one, close the book. They need to put out a modern, fully licensed Stern machine like Metallica or Game of Thrones just to show they're still in it, and if we see an LCD machine like Batman 66 then we'll know they are serious about going forward. If the next pack is a couple Gottlieb Premiere machines, they've all but given up.

The true tricky thing with FarSight doing modern Sterns is that they might not be able to do any license that Zen already has done. It's that whole digital licensing thing, where for example Zen already licensed Deadpool for pinball, therefore FarSight couldn't, despite them being different tables completely. If that indeed is the case, guess what FarSight couldn't put out...

- Family Guy
- Spider-Man
- Iron Man
- X-Men
- Avengers
- Walking Dead
- Star Wars
- Guardians of the Galaxy
- Deadpool

There's still a bunch of other tables they could do, but most of the recent modern Stern lineup they can't touch. Look at what that leaves and the licenses FarSight would have to deal with...

Music Licenses

-Elvis
-Rolling Stones
-Metallica
-Kiss
-Aerosmith
-Iron Maiden
-The Beatles

Disney/Fox

-The Simpsons Pinball Party
-24
-Pirates of the Caribbean
-Indiana Jones
-AVATAR
-TRON

CBS/Paramount
-Wheel of Fortune (distributed by CBS, produced by Sony)
-CSI
-Transformers

Warner Bros
-Austin Powers
-Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines
-The Lord of the Rings
-The Sopranos
-Batman
-Game of Thrones
-Batman '66

One Off Licenses

-Striker Xtreme
-Sharkey's Shootout
-Monopoly
-NFL
-RollerCoaster Tycoon
-Playboy
-NASCAR
-World Poker Tour
-Shrek
-NBA
-Wrestlemania

Will FarSight pony up for music licenses? They needed a full kickstarter that got funded instead by Oculus for AC/DC, so I'd say on their own dime, no.
FarSight has zero chance with Disney, and with them acquiring Fox, those are as good as off the table too. Especially since Zen already has established that connection.
FarSight has dealt with CBS, Paramount, and Sony in the past so those are very much possible future tables.
If Warner Bros were a possibility, we'd have had LOTR a long time ago. Also Batman is one license Zen can't do, as it's DC and conflicts with the Marvel license (very few companies get around that)
Of the one offs, no way do they do NFL, Playboy, or NBA. Monopoly and Rollercoaster Tycoon should have been done years ago, so assume they too are no goes.

So in any realistic situation, the possible tables FarSight might put out, with no outside funding, are...

- Wheel of Fortune
- CSI
- Transformers
- Striker Xtreme
- Sharkey's Shootout
- NASCAR
- World Poker Tour
- Shrek
- Wrestlemania

As you can see, the only 'modern' table of the bunch is Wrestlemania. So who here is excited about any of those 9 remaining? Even if FarSight pulled off grabbing a Warners license, they aren't going to do Austin Powers (terrible table), T3 (been there, done that, costs a lot), Sopranos (too adult). So Batman, LOTR, and GoT, all of which will cost a bunch and probably wouldn't be funded in-house.

Paints a fairly grim picture, doesn't it? And if I can figure this out, you know Stern has too. So again I say, come March I think we'll all know which direction the wind is blowing. Maybe FarSight pulls a rabbit out of the hat, but they are pretty risk averse. Perhaps they pivot and grab the Capcom license, but again that's been low hanging fruit for a very long time that they've ignored.

 

[vfpcoder]

I think FarSight could survive on Gottlieb EMs, Capcom, and Data East tables. (Assuming the latter is not already tied to the Stern license.) But as you say they seemingly haven’t gone after Capcom even though that seemed the logical thing to do even as far back as three years ago.

We have heard FarSight state that they are developing a new engine to handle the more modern video monitor based Stern tables. So it seems logical to assume that there are some new Stern tables targeted for digital emulation for that platform.

In any event your March turntable seems just about right to find out which way the wind is blowing here ...

 

[Citizen]

I think FarSight could survive on Gottlieb EMs, Capcom, and Data East tables. (Assuming the latter is not already tied to the Stern license.)

Data East and Sega pinball assets are owned by Stern.

Most of them also carry expensive or otherwise unobtainable third party licenses anyway. Just like the list of realistic Sterns left we might see can be weeded down to being pretty small, the same goes for the Data East library.

 

[shutyertrap]

Data East and Sega pinball assets are owned by Stern.

Most of them also carry expensive or otherwise unobtainable third party licenses anyway. Just like the list of realistic Sterns left we might see can be weeded down to being pretty small, the same goes for the Data East library.

And again, are Data East and Sega tables what Stern wants out there to further the brand? They want day and date so as to have an actual impact on current sales. It’s all fine and dandy to show your company’s legacy so long as you are also highlighting what they are doing now.

 

[shutyertrap]

We have heard FarSight state that they are developing a new engine to handle the more modern video monitor based Stern tables. So it seems logical to assume that there are some new Stern tables targeted for digital emulation for that platform.

Yes, they said that. So they can do Batman ‘66, no way do they afford Aerosmith, Maiden, or Beatles, and upcoming is Munsters, Elvira, and rumored Jaws (but Zen license would eliminate that). Zen would be smart to scoop up Elvira license prior to FarSight doing Stern version just to block them. So how much of a reality then is it that within the specs of TPA they’ll get LCD working for possibly 3 tables, 2 which don’t even exist yet, AND avoid processor issues that plagued Ghostbusters?

 

[bmsuseluda]

why shouldn't it be possible that 2 companies could get a licence?

 

[shutyertrap]

why shouldn't it be possible that 2 companies could get a licence?

It's not impossible, it just doesn't seem to happen in video games anymore. Licensors don't want to confuse the public with same title, different game. Imagine if Indiana Jones Pinball Adventure (WMS) was released at the same time as Indiana Jones (Stern). People not in the know would recognize that there is an Indy table that exists, but might not be able to distinguish which is which. I seriously doubt Stern will be able to release a Vault Edition of PotC now that Jersey Jack is about to release their machine. I almost wonder if you can blame Madden and EA with this happening. Point is, licenses tend to have exclusivity attached to them now, regardless of what it is based on.

 

[Zabu]

I don't know how much FS would have to deal with licensing for the newer Sterns, I could swear I remember reading somewhere that Stern took care of all of the licensing for digital versions when the got the licenses for the tables. That means FS would not have to worry about music or likeness issues. The licensing MAY even allow for the release of things like Deadpool, GotG, and Spider-Man which I believe were after the all in one license since Stern already has the rights to release digital versions of those.

 

[shutyertrap]

I don't know how much FS would have to deal with licensing for the newer Sterns, I could swear I remember reading somewhere that Stern took care of all of the licensing for digital versions when the got the licenses for the tables. That means FS would not have to worry about music or likeness issues. The licensing MAY even allow for the release of things like Deadpool, GotG, and Spider-Man which I believe were after the all in one license since Stern already has the rights to release digital versions of those.

We have reported ourselves that Stern has some sort of digital license written in, and that’s gone back 2 years at least. Nobody knows exactly how that affects FarSight though especially since we’ve never gotten official confirmation from Stern or FarSight. More to the point, has it been put to use? Ghostbusters maybe, or was that a holdover from when they did the Haunted House re-skin? And as mentioned in the latest podcast, Deadpool, GotG, and Spider-Man are pretty much off the table due to digital pinball versions of the license by Zen.

 

[Kolchak357]

Any news for Zen on mobile platforms?

 

[shutyertrap]

Any news for Zen on mobile platforms?

Nope

 

[Gorgar]

More to the point, has it been put to use? Ghostbusters maybe, or was that a holdover from when they did the Haunted House re-skin?

Part of me thinks that the licenses Farsight has from Stern (apart from AC/DC) are all remainders from previous licenses or cheap licenses. Another part of me says that all of the music in Mustang and the likeness of actors in Star Trek Vengeance couldn’t have come cheap unless they were baked into Stern’s initial contract with the IPs.

 

[shutyertrap]

Part of me thinks that the licenses Farsight has from Stern (apart from AC/DC) are all remainders from previous licenses or cheap licenses. Another part of me says that all of the music in Mustang and the likeness of actors in Star Trek Vengeance couldn’t have come cheap unless they were baked into Stern’s initial contract with the IPs.

Well one thing to keep in mind is that SPA was a project FarSight was contracted for, as opposed to being an in-house self produced project like TPA. As those two were launch tables, Stern might have eaten the cost. Then comes AC/DC and it’s back on FarSight to make it happen. Oculus stepped in and financed that license to jumpstart their own project, which was the VR version. So if there is no outside funding and no Kickstarter, what does FarSight do? Or what are they willing to risk?

 

[Sean]

I guess it’s down to Farsight to decide if it’s worthwhile to do early Stern SS tables and Gottlieb EMs. I personally wouldn’t care if that’s all that was forthcoming; in fact I’d go so far as to say I’d prefer that to newer Stern tables based on licensed properties. Not that I haven’t enjoyed some licensed tables in the past, but that’s not why I play pinball.