Criticism on Zen Pinball

[Pinballwiz45b]

Few things about this from my perspective:

1) The bang back ability was on ALL platforms, not just Steam. Removing that functionality from the Steam userbase has made us inferior to other platforms.

2) I never used programs that scripted key presses. Attempted bang backs are 100% clean, using multiple key presses and not using a single script. Doesn't mean I'm perfect at Zen Pinball bang backs.

3) Many players who have seen this and never read the forums on Steam will assume that us top players have cheated. Even Zen has deemed this an "exploit".

http://steamcommunity.com/app/226980/discussions/0/523898291494557684/

 

[steven120566]

Pinballwiz... Just let me say I have learned alot from your videos and am in awe. I learned how to execute bang backs from you

Anyway, as I said, I do prefer Zen/FX to TPA but love both. I play like 75% on Wii U and 25% on my old x-360 and am soooo looking forward to the Wii U release of TPA

In Zen/FX, I am successfully able to execute the bang back, depending on the table, about 10-15% of the time, on both of these systems FWIW. For TPA it seems a little more difficult because some of the real tables must have had metal barriers beneath the flippers. I am not that good of a player lol.

 

[shutyertrap]

That's some next level griping that applies to me 0%. Never attempted a bang back, don't really care to. Then again, in general I'm not much of a nudger. I played league last weekend and played against one of the top players in the world. I couldn't even fathom the amount of micro nudges he was constantly doing, so I get that things like this are what separates the elite from the average. I just don't get though how not being able to do this completely ruins the game for you.

As for the leaderboards, I loved the reset. It's what I wish FarSight would do on an annual basis. It's like when playing a racing game. The thrill for me isn't keeping the lead for lap after lap, but in passing and overtaking. I pop in a table I haven't played since the reset, and the challenge is right back. Again it's a mentality set though, where I'm not a leaderboard chaser, and kind of laugh at people who make it the top priority of any game they play. It seems THAT becomes the game, not the game itself.

 

[steven120566]

That's some next level griping that applies to me 0%. Never attempted a bang back, don't really care to. Then again, in general I'm not much of a nudger. I played league last weekend and played against one of the top players in the world. I couldn't even fathom the amount of micro nudges he was constantly doing, so I get that things like this are what separates the elite from the average. I just don't get though how not being able to do this completely ruins the game for you.

As for the leaderboards, I loved the reset. It's what I wish FarSight would do on an annual basis. It's like when playing a racing game. The thrill for me isn't keeping the lead for lap after lap, but in passing and overtaking. I pop in a table I haven't played since the reset, and the challenge is right back. Again it's a mentality set though, where I'm not a leaderboard chaser, and kind of laugh at people who make it the top priority of any game they play. It seems THAT becomes the game, not the game itself.

Great ideas shutyertrap... I wonder....you know how both games have a "weekly" board you can switch to??? Well what if they kept the all time and added a "yearly"? As much as I respect the greatness of the all-timers, I would really dig a yearly board. Let's take sports teams. Every year there is a new season where everyone starts 0-0. If these games had a "yearly" board that is where I would hang out the most. AWESOME idea, because as much as I love the game, I doubt I am gonna ever hit like 500 billion LOL.

 

[Tann]

I just play them and they are boring as hell, nothing really cool happens. The tables are gourgeous, they have great art, but the rules really don't get me.

But I play once in a while and it really don't appeal to me, especially because the table rules and the game design.

You spot it.

Zen major flaw is its game design, totally against the "flow of a pinball game".

On a pinball table (IRL or in TPA), you launch the ball, try to keep it alive and not drain, and something good finally never happens (multiball, special mode, or whatever). You know, when you play and you think: "Holy s**t, I don't have any single idea of what's happening / what I'm doing, but it's f*****g awesome".

On Zen, you launch the ball, and you can keep it alive forever (sticky physics), without nothing special happens because you don't follow precisely these damned & awful rules!. This weak game design for a pinball game, plus the repetitive sound design on most of the tables, makes the majority of them very boring.

Some tables are fun for a few games (great presentation, better flow), but the repetitive gameplay (try the same mission again and again and again -10 seconds to make 5 shots- yay, cool...) and weak rules kill definitely the appeal.

 

[shutyertrap]

Great ideas shutyertrap... I wonder....you know how both games have a "weekly" board you can switch to??? Well what if they kept the all time and added a "yearly"? As much as I respect the greatness of the all-timers, I would really dig a yearly board. Let's take sports teams. Every year there is a new season where everyone starts 0-0. If these games had a "yearly" board that is where I would hang out the most. AWESOME idea, because as much as I love the game, I doubt I am gonna ever hit like 500 billion LOL.

I've used that exact argument before, that sports teams at the beginning of a season all start off at square one, and it's up to the champs to prove themselves again while every one else is gunning for them. The top tier leaderboard people complain that then they'd have to go back and do all that work again on all those tables, something they don't want to do. My argument is it keeps the board fresh rather than getting stagnant. They also argue that yes, you could look at weekly or monthly boards and take victory in that.

The thing I like about Zen with their legacy board is that it isn't the first thing that pops up when looking, you have to dig for it. The in-game scores of friends that pop up, those are all refreshed too, which is great fun, rather than being based on the legacy. I like the idea of seasons, others prefer the idea of world records that stand for always. It's not that I'm opposed to that, I just don't need it being waved front and center in my face.

 

[invitro]

That's some next level griping that applies to me 0%. Never attempted a bang back, don't really care to. Then again, in general I'm not much of a nudger. I played league last weekend and played against one of the top players in the world. I couldn't even fathom the amount of micro nudges he was constantly doing, so I get that things like this are what separates the elite from the average. I just don't get though how not being able to do this completely ruins the game for you.

From reading the posts, I gather that the main complaint is that Zen implied that all the top Steam players were cheaters. And I agree with pbw and the others; my desire to get FX2 was lowered to almost nothing.

 

[steven120566]

This has been mentioned hundreds of times , though it's not a big deal to me personally. Farsight might be saying, well if we add a yearly, they'll demand a biyearly, and so on, and I think they'd be right.

FWIW, I did a poll a few months ago asking if people wanted to reset the leaderboards as shutyertrap advocates. Around 10% of voters were for the idea IIRC. It is a distinctly minority opinion.

I dont buy the inch theyll take a mile thing.... Let's get an "annual"

 

[skyway73]

I think this is the key for the enjoyment of Zen's table...

It's not better or worse than <insert pinball game here>, it's different. Enjoyment of any table is coming to terms with what it is, rather than trying to shoe horn in what you think it should be.

The physics are different, the table hardware is different, the table software/goals are different. Accept and enjoy.

Nicely put and I totally agree. While there are certain things I would love to change about Zen's tables I realise we all have different opinions on what they should and should not be doing. I'd personally love them to be just a little bit more like real pins but I'm a pinball fan who loves real tables. A lot of their customers are much more casual. They are always improving both as a studio and the work they produce too, as has been stated some of the older tables might not be great but they do have some real gems in their catalogue.

I think the leaderboard subject is a tough one and we can see from just a few voices here that every person has their own view. How to please us all is a difficult task

 

[Gorgar]

I generally find it much more difficult to keep the ball alive in Zen Pinball than TPA, probably because I play more TPA. I do have a lot of problems trying to figure out what to do on many of their tables and often get bored of them quickly.

I actually have the same taste as Shutyertrap in zen tables because I find both Iron Man and Epic Quest to be the most enjoyable. They both share that easy to learn, difficult to master quality that I think makes a good pinball table. I also enjoyed Bob's Burgers (I haven't even heard of the show), which is more complicated, but it kind of reminds me of Diner where you have to serve customers. I think that kind of thing (along with picking up customers, like in Taxi) works well in pinball.

 

[Robert Misner]

I find I can only really enjoy a Zen table if I focus on their game for a while..I can't go in for a game then go back to TPA or VP. Their game design is different enough it takes time to adjust. Once I commit to playing it and get to the point where the missions and rules objectives start to flow..its a lot of fun.

I prefer the tables that have real world sensibilities to their game mechanics even tho they have aspects that can't be done in real life. Tables like Family Guy(seems alot hate it cuz its to easy..but it plays like a real table more then most) Southpark, Wild West and Fear itself all are great tables.

Peoples resentment at the language used around the super nudge Exploit seem to be part of outrage culture that I just don't subscribe to.

There was design flaw in the game that allowed users to exploit combining nudge input sources to get super effective and powerful nudges that,didn't trigger an auto tilt, and allowed people to do ridiculous amounts of bang backs in a game.

Its considered an Exploit since it was never intended by design,not because your a cheater for having potentially used it.The fact they let it sit like that for so long before fixing it was the real mistake. updating the code to close the exploit led to a slight Nerf..but honestly, so what.
Existing leader boards were maintained for prosperity and new ones were started..it was the right thing to do.
No win situation but they at least tried to do the right thing.

 

[Stuzz]

On a side note, just yesterday I killed the final boss in Epic Quest for the first time. Hooray!

 

[wolfson]

I look at it this way,2 different animals.1.PINBALL ARCADE =real pinball 2.ZEN PINBALL=fantasy what I do with ZEN is adjust the tilt of the table and outer lanes adjust to make it harder.you got to switch your brain completely over when you play ZEN ,and only think FUN FUN and more FUN !!!!

 

[Stuzz]

you got to switch your brain completely over when you play...

... another pinball game which isn't the one you've been playing almost everyday for the past X years.

 

[relaxation]

There was design flaw in the game that allowed users to exploit combining nudge input sources to get super effective and powerful nudges that,didn't trigger an auto tilt, and allowed people to do ridiculous amounts of bang backs in a game.

You're afforded two warnings, each expire after 10 seconds so combining two inputs wouldn't cause a tilt.

A nudge at the moment the ball touches the flipper, no matter how minimal the momentum, it may produce an undesired results: example1 example2, better remake leaderboards again.. or not? I can't interpret the will of designers.

This could potentially bring bangbacks back, jumping the drain then nudging on the bounce/or initial hit to put it back into the flippers

 

[Pinballwiz45b]

Though, I've given it some thought and decided to leave for now. At least while this whole debacle calms down.

I enjoy the Zen tables very much, but how they executed the update without warning, as well as incorrect terminology, is inexcusable. If the other platforms get nerfed just as they did for the PC version, then that's fair game.

And by the way, I play on keyboard, so I can't control the nudge strength.

[MENTION=446]invitro[/MENTION], I really hope you'll join someday.

 

[Robert Misner]

You're afforded two warnings, each expire after 10 seconds so combining two inputs wouldn't cause a tilt.

A nudge at the moment the ball touches the flipper, no matter how minimal the momentum, it may produce an undesired results: example1 example2, better remake leaderboards again.. or not? I can't interpret the will of designers.

This could potentially bring bangbacks back, jumping the drain then nudging on the bounce/or initial hit to put it back into the flippers

that's not what i was talking about.
I'm talking about when you combine 2 inputs (analog nudge and digital nudge) at the same time with an end result that had the ball launching up and out with twice the force (in real life you will tilt most tables hitting it that hard) .. the dev said they never intended for the stacking effect so they fixed..it..at the same time they ended up nerfing things abit for pc as well.
They've said as much, not as an insult or accusation of cheating..but that the benefit wasn't intended..once it become so public and apparent anyone could use scripting to map two inputs to one device button came out..they decided to take action. they should have addressed it two years earlier when it was originally found but could of, would of, should of.

 

[relaxation]

I don't believe that to be an accurate discription of 'the exploit',

'The Exploit':2 keyboard keys for nudging (or directions on the D-PAD) were combined on one keystroke to achieve the effect, ('up and in' term was used at the time) more simply. Others already had the 2key input 'skill' for sometime and didn't require a key binding.

#FUUTA explains his perference to the D-PAD over the analog stick, after others looked into it like Chewables, found the analog stick wasn't as strong as two digital nudges

#Chewables C++ found a solution, which was to have the analog sticks readings be square and not circular (called Rect Correction, in XInput Plus)*

So, before 'the patch', controller users were at a disadvantage going in more than 1 direction and Chewables found a solution to bring it up to par with the digital input

#someone uploaded a video, I find out what all that 'Up and In' business meant after watching it, the program binding the inputs isn't to blame but the inputs timing were

#'the patch' happens relatively quickly

#*PinballWizb45 believes other platforms may have kept their two-key input method intact, others too suggest mobiles screen nudge has it's values read in square.

If anyone is wondering what I mean by square or circular, take a look at the sticks input/output state. Notice the circle and how far it comes in, remember when I said the nudge strength is based on the sticks location? Well the game only read up until that outlined circle so if we do Rect Correction like so the game will read the strengths just like digital inputs, a full 'Up and In' square reading.

side note: my earlier rant was kind of off-topic, but I'd purposely find a way to break (unintended behavoir) their game and record it just to watch them kneejerk and reset their leaderboards.. multiple times if I could.

 

[invitro]

@invitro, I really hope you'll join someday.

I guess you mean play FX2? Well, I'll keep my eye out for a sale, or table pack like shutyertrap mentioned. There's a lot of stuff going on right now, I need to prioritize .

 

[Pinballfan69]

Why doesn't steam have the weekly/monthly scores like TPA? Isn't that the case in Zen Pinball 2 but not Pinball FX2? I recall them having at least a monthly weekly thing in ZP2 on my PS3. My PS3 was Kaput for some time so I decided to invest in the Steam tables instead and they don't have that weekly option that I recall Zen Pinball 2 had. Even so I was really surprised when they basically reset the scores. Not saying I had top Scores but I was generally in the top 10/20 for all the tables before the reset. Now I think I have one table that I'm tops and that's Masters of the Force.'

Anyway. I enjoy both TPA and Zen for what they are. Like Skyway mentioned there are some gems in the line-up. South Park, Sorcerers Lair come to mind. There are others that are based purely on Personal Opinion. So Far American Dad, Fear Itself and South Part are my favorite tabels.