Early 80's Bally: Getting the flipper feel right on TPA + Your favorites?

[Mark W**a]

I started this thread because I wanted to talk about Bally flippers, and how they were much different from Williams/Gottlieb at that point in time, but I started writing and I just kinda got talking about which tables I'd like to see and why, so this is kind of a dual topic in that respect.

First off, if Farsight is going to do one of these, one thing that they are going to need to address is the flipper physics. You simply cannot use the same flipper physics that have been used thus far. Bally flippers from this era are much different than Gottlieb or Williams. They are slower/weaker. That may sound like a bad thing at first, but to players like me I absolutely love the feel. It feels like you have more control, in a sense, of your shots. They are also spaced closer together, meaning less SDTM drains, and overall the slower shots give the games from this era a very distinct feel.

Farsight will have to redo flipper physics for these, otherwise they simply will not be the same games. Has anyone mentioned this to them yet? Also, are there any plans for an early 80's Bally in the works or hinted at so far? How daunting would it be to get the feel of these flippers down, do you think that's an issue and perhaps a reason we haven't seen an early 80's Bally yet?

I've been pretty adamant about seeing an early 80's Bally machine on PBA. I feel like from a historical perspective, it's important to get at least one on there. To me, early 80's Bally is an "era" of pinball all it's own. Like how EM's have that 60's/70's vibe about them, Bally's have their own vibe that's distinct even from the Williams tables of that time like Gorgar and Black Knight. It's the voice work, music, and art style that creates this special "presense" of these tables. Sound design especially...I don't know if it's more "advanced" from a technological standpoint to what Williams and Gottlieb were doing at this time, but it certainly sounds like it to me. Xenon and Centaur have almost late 80's quality voicework and sound, whereas Black Knight, Black Hole, Gorgar sound much more robotic and less organic. Same thing with the music. Not that I have a problem with BK or Gorgar, I love those tables, I'm just pointing out Bally seemed like it was ahead in this respect.

As far as rule sets and table design, again I really feel these. They are unique. Xenon and Fathom are all about building up multipliers, doubling up the spinner and ripping it for big points, and of course multiball modes. One of my favorite aspects of these two is maxing out the multiplier, which then carries over to the next ball. Fathom actually has two multipliers, a green and a blue, and I believe multiple multiball modes but I'll have to double check that.

Xenon is one of the first tables that really made you feel like multiball was this epic, insane thing. The buildup with voice commands, and then how the music slowly builds up, faster and faster, until it starts going crazy. Similar to how Gorgar's heart starts beating faster and faster, but Xenon actually sounds much better. The music, though simple, does an incredible job of nailing this.

Now these are just the 3 that I'm familiar with. We had a Xenon growing up, and while I'm partial to that one on a personal level for this reason, it's Centaur that I want the most. And the crazy thing is I've never played Centaur, I'm simply going off of Youtube videos. It just looks that epic to me. Same with Fathom, I watched a tutorial on it and came away digging the table. The only other table I'm familiar with of from this era is Future Spa, but from what I've seen I wasn't feeling that one.

TL;DR

What early 80's Bally tables would you like to see? Do you think Farsight will be able to nail the unique flipper feel of these tables? Discuss.

 

[brakel]

I think Farsight has a ways to go in getting the flipper physics right in general for TPA without getting into differences in different kinds of flippers for different manufacturers. Once TPA gets the flippers right for the tables that are published then they can look at creating a new flipper physics experience.

 

[DarthVonDoom]

Welcome the the Centaur Nation my brother. I'm totally with you on this Centaur, Xenon and Fathom are the 3 tables from that era I want the most. They are incredible piece of art, just gorgeous machines and they are awesome to play too. In a perfect world they would have come before victory. Or Ripley. That sh*t's ugly

 

[DarthVonDoom]

And you are right abut the flippers too they are indeed weaker. If a 90s Williams table had flippers like that I would smash my head against the glass in frustration but with these Bally tables it's just right and Farsight has got to nail them otherwise that just won't do.

 

[Mark W**a]

Welcome the the Centaur Nation my brother. I'm totally with you on this Centaur, Xenon and Fathom are the 3 tables from that era I want the most. They are incredible piece of art, just gorgeous machines and they are awesome to play too. In a perfect world they would have come before victory. Or Ripley. That sh*t's ugly

I agree. Ripley's is a well designed table, Pat Lawlor ftw but the theme just kills it. The only table on PBA I pull out my iPod because I don't like how it sounds. Or looks tbqh.

Also hit facebook and make some noise there : http://www.facebook.com/pinballarcade/posts/473727529314979?notif_t=feed_comment

I think Farsight has a ways to go in getting the flipper physics right in general for TPA without getting into differences in different kinds of flippers for different manufacturers. Once TPA gets the flippers right for the tables that are published then they can look at creating a new flipper physics experience.

I agree, what needs fixed is, on a real pinball you can "re-flip" before the flipper even beings to drop on the release. This is how you do cradle-seperations, and drop catches. Can't do that currently. The issue is the flipper makes a full drop upon release, no matter how fast you are. The trade off is that post passes are a lot easier and more accurate, but I'm with you I'm all for as much realism as possible.

However, IMO, as far as the actual speed/feel of the flippers, I feel they nailed the feel of a Williams/Stern experience in speed and power. They don't have to re-do the physics to match real life (though I'd like it if they did), they just need to make the flipper slower for Bally. Like Darth is saying too, this is a must.

 

[Fuseball]

Welcome the the Centaur Nation my brother. I'm totally with you on this Centaur, Xenon and Fathom are the 3 tables from that era I want the most. They are incredible piece of art, just gorgeous machines and they are awesome to play too. In a perfect world they would have come before victory. Or Ripley. That sh*t's ugly

Three of my favourite games ever. Never owned a Xenon but Fathom was my first pin (so regret selling it) and I've recently restored a Centaur. Great point about the flippers. They do feel completely different on the Ballys and I think they give those games a certain grace that matches the beauty of the artwork.

I've never really looked into the reasons why they are different. I know the flippers themselves are more rounded than Williams ones. I'm guessing that either the mechanism under the playfield is quite different or the coils significantly weaker.

 

[jaredmorgs]

And you are right abut the flippers too they are indeed weaker. If a 90s Williams table had flippers like that I would smash my head against the glass in frustration but with these Bally tables it's just right and Farsight has got to nail them otherwise that just won't do.

I also don't remember Black Hole having the flipper strength that is has in TPA. Those tables didn't need strong flippers. There were no ramp inclines the ball had to climb, therefore flipper coils did not need to be heavily wound.

This may be off-topic, but I have also noticed that non-powered rubber surfaces in Black Hole behave like they have kickers behind them. When I hit a slow shot up to one of the mostly dropped drop-target banks, when the ball glanced the rubber behind the targets it bounced off at slingshot speed.

This is simply not correct physics for that table.

 

[dtown8532]

I've been pushing for Centaur for a while around the forum so here's another plug for it. Saturday, I went to the White Rose Gameroom Show in York, Pa. It's one of those kind of shows where you pay a fee to get in and everything's on free play with most of the games being for sale as well. While it does encompass anything that's game room related it's mostly focused on pinball. Anyway, they also have a small outside area which is basically a "flea market." You know, stuff that may or may not be complete, work, etc. Most of the pins outside are usually EM's with some lesser known early SS's. Not much that interests me. But, this time, I see a Centaur all wrapped up on a hand truck. I'm thinking "Ah, it's probably sold already." Nonetheless, I figured I'd ask. So I find the guy whose got it and ask him if it's for sale. He tells me "Yea, I just picked it up. Two thousand." Now this table is not in mint condition. From the little I could see its got the usual fading of the white, paint touch up and needs, at least, a complete shop job. Also, I think Wolverine might have had a bad game and took his claws across the side of the cabinet. While I try and hold back the "you got to be f*cking kidding me?" I ask the guy if it works. He tells me that he believes it works. So, I tell him "thank you" and walk away. I come back about 30 minutes later and, now, it has a sign on it saying "Not for sale." It's sitting at the FRONT of this guy's stand with a "not for sale" sign on it. So, either it was sold (not likely) or, maybe, someone told him what I was thinking.

Now, don't get me wrong. Around here, Centaur is hard to come by and fetches more than most of its contemporaries from the same era. If it was complete, the rest of the playfield wasn't a mess and the boards weren't a pile of hacks, I'd give a grand for it. That's probably what he paid for it though. I don't know what Centaur brings in other places but in the northeastern states it's pricey. That goes for Fathom too. Here's hoping that FarSight brings them to TPA so I don't have to keep longing after them.

 

[diablomozart]

theres a centaur 2 for 1500 in gainesville ga on craigslist...never seen one before...d.m.