Egg Shaped Ball at top of Cab Views

[SilverBalls]

SilverBalls. Thank you very much for sending your screenshots of the egg-ball.

FlippyFloppy. This is exactly the same ball I am seeing when playing in cabinet mode. These screenshots are probably from camera view # 3 which distorts the ball the most.

np . These are indeed for the view 3.

Just to add - the egg ball is only present in the top most half of the table (where the intended 3D stretching is most prominent).
In the lower half of the table the ball is round. Maybe the solution is to just "anti-stretch" / "or not stretch" the ball like Visual Pinball does (they had this problem some time back).

 

[FlippyFloppy]

Thanks for the screenshots, this is kind of tricky situation. I'll have to check with the programmer that put in the code for these cameras to see if there is anything we can do about it so that were still able to get the 3D effect. The 3 cameras derive from camera positions we recorded while the Kinect was active. Earlier in development it was harder to pull off and ultimately we did have to stretch some tables which stretches the ball as well.

 

[BostonBuckeye]

Thanks for the screenshots, this is kind of tricky situation. I'll have to check with the programmer that put in the code for these cameras to see if there is anything we can do about it so that were still able to get the 3D effect. The 3 cameras derive from camera positions we recorded while the Kinect was active. Earlier in development it was harder to pull off and ultimately we did have to stretch some tables which stretches the ball as well.

Thanks FlippyFloppy. Hopefully this can be fixed because it really looks silly with an egg-shaped ball bouncing around at the top of the playfield. However, I have to say you guys are doing a great job in such a short period of time of bringing cabinet support to TPA in Steam. Everything else looks and plays great for me. I do have one question regarding the backglasses. I believe only a handfull are currently animated. Do you have plans to eventually animate them all? The June 30th deadline shouldn't prevent you from doing this because it only applies to selling Williams/Bally tables correct?

 

[FlippyFloppy]

Thanks FlippyFloppy. Hopefully this can be fixed because it really looks silly with an egg-shaped ball bouncing around at the top of the playfield. However, I have to say you guys are doing a great job in such a short period of time of bringing cabinet support to TPA in Steam. Everything else looks and plays great for me. I do have one question regarding the backglasses. I believe only a handfull are currently animated. Do you have plans to eventually animate them all? The June 30th deadline shouldn't prevent you from doing this because it only applies to selling Williams/Bally tables correct?

That is correct. Right now they aren't animating because of performance reasons, once we can address them we should be able to update tables and get the light shows in. Williams tables can still be worked on and updated after the June 30th deadline.

 

[BostonBuckeye]

That is correct. Right now they aren't animating because of performance reasons, once we can address them we should be able to update tables and get the light shows in. Williams tables can still be worked on and updated after the June 30th deadline.

That is great news FlippyFloppy. Thanks.

 

[nudnick]

Here's my 2 cents worth regarding the distorted view:

When you first enter the arcooda cabinet mode and launch a table, the table looks very nice ... but ... then you plunge a ball and the ball gets larger the further away it gets from you and smaller as it gets closer to you. The reason is simple. The top corners of the cab are stretched out so that they fill your monitor in the upper corners. No way to do this without stretching the view ... therefore not only the ball, but the upper play field flippers and all the upper play field objects appear "closer" to you than the play field objects that are nearer to you in the bottom of the play field. It kinda ruins the simulation seeing the ball appear to be the size of a golf ball at top of play field and then as it approaches you at the bottom of the play field it shrinks to the size of a marble.

I actually prefer the NoEx mod cam views because there is no distortion or stretching of the play field. I'd rather give up having the top of the play field stretched out to the corners of my monitor. I'm in it for the simulation.

The perfect situation would be animated black glass that we get with Arcooda and NoEx tools to adjust the consumer view to their meet their preference. Naturally, objects further away from you should appear ... well ... further away from you.

 

[priested]

Here's my 2 cents worth regarding the distorted view:

When you first enter the arcooda cabinet mode and launch a table, the table looks very nice ... but ... then you plunge a ball and the ball gets larger the further away it gets from you and smaller as it gets closer to you. The reason is simple. The top corners of the cab are stretched out so that they fill your monitor in the upper corners. No way to do this without stretching the view ... therefore not only the ball, but the upper play field flippers and all the upper play field objects appear "closer" to you than the play field objects that are nearer to you in the bottom of the play field. It kinda ruins the simulation seeing the ball appear to be the size of a golf ball at top of play field and then as it approaches you at the bottom of the play field it shrinks to the size of a marble.

I actually prefer the NoEx mod cam views because there is no distortion or stretching of the play field. I'd rather give up having the top of the play field stretched out to the corners of my monitor. I'm in it for the simulation.

The perfect situation would be animated black glass that we get with Arcooda and NoEx tools to adjust the consumer view to their meet their preference. Naturally, objects further away from you should appear ... well ... further away from you.

Agree with everything here. The perspective is all wrong. This is why I don't think this issue will ever be fixed. It is not a bug. It is a design problem. It seems the method chosen to acheive the illusion of depth was to just stretch everything on the back half of the table. That may get you depth but it doesn't look like a real table.

I agree that the best way to salvage something usable here is to provide an option to just use the backglasses with the working dmd/scores and let us use either the original FarSight views or Noex mod.

Of course this makes the $150 price seem ridiculous for what you get, at least it provides some value added to the FarSight product.

Would this be possible?

 

[BostonBuckeye]

Here's my 2 cents worth regarding the distorted view:

When you first enter the arcooda cabinet mode and launch a table, the table looks very nice ... but ... then you plunge a ball and the ball gets larger the further away it gets from you and smaller as it gets closer to you. The reason is simple. The top corners of the cab are stretched out so that they fill your monitor in the upper corners. No way to do this without stretching the view ... therefore not only the ball, but the upper play field flippers and all the upper play field objects appear "closer" to you than the play field objects that are nearer to you in the bottom of the play field. It kinda ruins the simulation seeing the ball appear to be the size of a golf ball at top of play field and then as it approaches you at the bottom of the play field it shrinks to the size of a marble.

I actually prefer the NoEx mod cam views because there is no distortion or stretching of the play field. I'd rather give up having the top of the play field stretched out to the corners of my monitor. I'm in it for the simulation.

The perfect situation would be animated black glass that we get with Arcooda and NoEx tools to adjust the consumer view to their meet their preference. Naturally, objects further away from you should appear ... well ... further away from you.

The thing is if you watch the Arcooda Cabinet Mode videos, and it is hard to tell, but to me it does not look like the ball gets stretched at the top of the playfield, when they go from the overhead cabinet view to the 3-D views. And it definitely doesn’t get smaller at the bottom of the playfield. Also this phenomenon does not seem to be occurring for everyone or else there would be a lot more people chiming in on this thread.

FlippyFloppy, can you confirm if when playing on an official Arcooda cabinet, without usiing the Kinect camera, if the ball gets stretched on that playfield as well?

 

[priested]

When I select the different camera modes, it pretty clearly stretches everything on the top half by increments even when not actively playing (just switching the camera) . It is definitely more than just the ball that stretches. I believe this is by design. It does achieve a somewhat 3D effect but at the expense of distorting all of the items on the playfield. I sincerely hope it is a bug but it certainly doesn't look that way to me. It looks like this is the way it is designed to work.

 

[BostonBuckeye]

When I select the different camera modes, it pretty clearly stretches everything on the top half by increments even when not actively playing (just switching the camera) . It is definitely more than just the ball that stretches. I believe this is by design. It does achieve a somewhat 3D effect but at the expense of distorting all of the items on the playfield. I sincerely hope it is a bug but it certainly doesn't look that way to me. It looks like this is the way it is designed to work.

The playfield stretches incrementally with each view in the video as well, but the ball, at least from what I can tell, does not also get stretched. SilverBalls mentioned in this thread that the same thing also happened originally in VP but they were able to fix it. Hopefully FarSight can do the same. Also, I just played ProPinball’s TimeShock in cabinet view, which I had never done before and the same stretching at the top of the playfiled occurs and a slightly stretched egg ball also appears. Mt. Rushmore gets really stretched out. So the stretching of the playfield at the top of the table in every cabinet mode out there may be the norm. Except of course when the view is directly over the table in which case no stretching is needed.

 

[priested]

The playfield stretches incrementally with each view in the video as well, but the ball, at least from what I can tell, does not also get stretched. SilverBalls mentioned in this thread that the same thing also happened originally in VP but they were able to fix it. Hopefully FarSight can do the same. Also, I just played ProPinball’s TimeShock in cabinet view, which I had never done before and the same stretching at the top of the playfiled occurs and a slightly stretched egg ball also appears. Mt. Rushmore gets really stretched out. So the stretching of the playfield at the top of the table in every cabinet mode out there may be the norm. Except of course when the view is directly over the table in which case no stretching is needed.

So I guess you're agreeing that you also think this stretching of the playfield items in the rear is by design (except the ball). If that's the case then that is not an effect I want. It's really almost like the playfield tilts down toward the back rather than up like it would on a normal table. Everything in the back looks larger than in the front when it should look smaller and more distant. Nothing else on my cabinet behaves this way. Not even FarSight's normal views where everything at least looks in the proper perspective.

 

[priested]

I also can't think of a logical reason why this particular issue would be different on different machines. It doesn't seem to relate to performance like the slowdown/frame rate issues would. This is a software algorithm issue. It should behave the same on every machine I would think.

The reason there isn't more talk about this may be that some may like the 3D effect and think the tradeoff is worth it. Kind of like how some people like 3D movies and some don't.

 

[Jamman39]

I also can't think of a logical reason why this particular issue would be different on different machines. It doesn't seem to relate to performance like the slowdown/frame rate issues would. This is a software algorithm issue. It should behave the same on every machine I would think.

The reason there isn't more talk about this may be that some may like the 3D effect and think the tradeoff is worth it. Kind of like how some people like 3D movies and some don't.

I'm not sure it is different on different machines. I took a look at the photos Silverballs posted and they look just like they do on my cab. I'm thinking different users are more sensitive to the shape of the ball. I look at the picture Silverballs posted and my brain goes "round enough" I have to look at the still frame for a little while before it starts to look egg shaped to me

Another factor could just be the viewing angle of the cabinet. They'll vary from build to build, for instance my monitor is mounted on a very small tilt, with a sheet of glass over at a more tilted normal pinball angle. Most homebuilt cabinets will have the monitor mounted where my glass would be, which would change the users view of the ball/playfield stretching

 

[priested]

To be honest, I'm more concerned about the overall distorted perspective nudnick describes than the ball. His post describes exactly what is going on in my cabinet. I have to believe that this distortion is in everybody's cabinet. It has to be. It's the method used to create the fake 3D effect. The distorted ball is just a function of the distortion that exists across the whole playfield - especially at the top. I'm surprised more people aren't bothered by it.

 

[BostonBuckeye]

So I guess you're agreeing that you also think this stretching of the playfield items in the rear is by design (except the ball). If that's the case then that is not an effect I want. It's really almost like the playfield tilts down toward the back rather than up like it would on a normal table. Everything in the back looks larger than in the front when it should look smaller and more distant. Nothing else on my cabinet behaves this way. Not even FarSight's normal views where everything at least looks in the proper perspective.

Yes, you are correct. I believe the stretching of the playfield is intentional to create the 3-D effect. It does bother me some but I can probably get used to it. However the ball going from marble size at the bottom of the playfield to the expanded, egg-shaped ball at the top of the playfield bothers me a whole bunch and is something that I will not be able to get used to. I do think SilverBalls is correct that the stretching of the table looks better when viewed standing at a real cabinet. I am just playing with two monitors on my desktop and not in a cab. To me the stretch is really bad in camera 3 but not so bad in camera 1 which is the view I prefer.

 

[Beatfox]

The thing about any cabinet view is that it'll only look completely correct if the user views the monitor from the same angle and distance as the in-game camera views the virtual table - the stretching is a simple perspective distortion that cancels out the distorted perspective the user would otherwise experience when looking at the monitor at an angle, and at the same time causes the table boundaries to align with the edges of the display. If you're seeing ball distortion (barring any uniform horizontal/vertical stretching that might be present to compensate for aspect ratio differences), it means that there's a mismatch between your viewing position and the game camera. It should always be theoretically possible to move around and find a viewing position that matches up with the game camera, eliminating all distortion. Unfortunately, that may not always result in a practical or comfortable viewing position, depending on your specific cabinet setup.

I'm getting the impression that FS/Arcooda would have done well to include manual coordinate adjustments for the in-game camera, in addition to the 4 presets they provide. I can understand how it wouldn't originally have been seen as necessary, since they designed the software with just the standardized Arcooda tables in mind. But with it now being available for use with many diverse cabinets with different heights, screen sizes, angled positions, etc., a manual adjustment feature really strikes me as a necessity. Especially at this price point.

 

[BostonBuckeye]

The thing about any cabinet view is that it'll only look completely correct if the user views the monitor from the same angle and distance as the in-game camera views the virtual table - the stretching is a simple perspective distortion that cancels out the distorted perspective the user would otherwise experience when looking at the monitor at an angle, and at the same time causes the table boundaries to align with the edges of the display. If you're seeing ball distortion (barring any uniform horizontal/vertical stretching that might be present to compensate for aspect ratio differences), it means that there's a mismatch between your viewing position and the game camera. It should always be theoretically possible to move around and find a viewing position that matches up with the game camera, eliminating all distortion. Unfortunately, that may not always result in a practical or comfortable viewing position, depending on your specific cabinet setup.

I'm getting the impression that FS/Arcooda would have done well to include manual coordinate adjustments for the in-game camera, in addition to the 4 presets they provide. I can understand how it wouldn't originally have been seen as necessary, since they designed the software with just the standardized Arcooda tables in mind. But with it now being available for use with many diverse cabinets with different heights, screen sizes, angled positions, etc., a manual adjustment feature really strikes me as a necessity. Especially at this price point.

Beatfox, I believe you may have hit the nail on the head.

FlippyFloppy, are manual coordinate adjustments for the in-game camera something you can add down the line?

 

[shutyertrap]

So in other words, it's like those 3D chalk art illusions, where it's only gonna work from the proper angle.

 

[Beatfox]

Exactly. Good analogy!

 

[priested]

The thing about any cabinet view is that it'll only look completely correct if the user views the monitor from the same angle and distance as the in-game camera views the virtual table - the stretching is a simple perspective distortion that cancels out the distorted perspective the user would otherwise experience when looking at the monitor at an angle, and at the same time causes the table boundaries to align with the edges of the display. If you're seeing ball distortion (barring any uniform horizontal/vertical stretching that might be present to compensate for aspect ratio differences), it means that there's a mismatch between your viewing position and the game camera. It should always be theoretically possible to move around and find a viewing position that matches up with the game camera, eliminating all distortion. Unfortunately, that may not always result in a practical or comfortable viewing position, depending on your specific cabinet setup.

I'm getting the impression that FS/Arcooda would have done well to include manual coordinate adjustments for the in-game camera, in addition to the 4 presets they provide. I can understand how it wouldn't originally have been seen as necessary, since they designed the software with just the standardized Arcooda tables in mind. But with it now being available for use with many diverse cabinets with different heights, screen sizes, angled positions, etc., a manual adjustment feature really strikes me as a necessity. Especially at this price point.

This sounds good and all but, I have looked at the table from many angles and it always does the same thing for me. The back end looks really stretched downward and everything looks distorted. How come nothing else on my cabinet does this? How come no other video game I play has this phenomenon where it looks different if you look at the TV from a different angle?

I think what's going on here is people just really want to like this product and are excusing faults they wouldn't normally excuse. I get it. It started out that way for me too. I have wanted this product for a long time. When I first got it, I tried to like it. I was overlooking a bunch of flaws trying to like it. Then I finally just had to admit to myself "You know, this really doesn't look right.." Things at the back of the cab shouldn't be so much bigger than the front. The ball shouldn't get smaller as it gets closer. The table looks like it is tilting down rather than up. . The 3D effect is cool and all but things just look distorted and wrong.