EM; root for a classic.

[Jeff Strong]

I agree with those who have brought up the point that Farsight's selection of EMs hasn't been exactly stellar. Yes, Big Shot is good, but the rest weren't exactly highly sought after pins among EM enthusiasts. It's interesting that they say so often that EMs don't sell well...which is in response to EM requests...so clearly there are people who want EMs in the game if they're making requests, but they just want better EMs than those that Farsight originally selected. However, it's much more convenient for them to copy and paste their response that they don't sell well every time a request comes in, so that's probably what they'll continue to do.

 

[Bowflex]

So basically you're saying that Farsight is wrong and full of it?

Absolutely! I was not the one who asked on the Facebook page but I do know plenty about quantitative and qualitative data collection and their conclusion has almost zero foundation for being useful in making the statements they have made on EMs thus far. They are certainly entitled to their opinion on the matter but I haven't seen any evidence that gives a strong argument not to try at least one EM or offer the chance to do a kickstarter to bring a table or multiple tables just to test the waters and remove their risk in bringing out an EM.

 

[night]

Fireball would be a great EM choice.

 

[Espy]

Absolutely! I was not the one who asked on the Facebook page but I do know plenty about quantitative and qualitative data collection and their conclusion has almost zero foundation for being useful in making the statements they have made on EMs thus far. They are certainly entitled to their opinion on the matter but I haven't seen any evidence that gives a strong argument not to try at least one EM or offer the chance to do a kickstarter to bring a table or multiple tables just to test the waters and remove their risk in bringing out an EM.

It's a bit naive to assume you know exactly what data Farsight has at their disposal. You haven't seen evidence because there's no obligation for them to show you. The fact that they've given us a reason why they won't be doing EMs is more than most companies would.

 

[soundwave106]

It's a bit naive to assume you know exactly what data Farsight has at their disposal. You haven't seen evidence because there's no obligation for them to show you. The fact that they've given us a reason why they won't be doing EMs is more than most companies would.

It is entirely possible that this reason is a "misdirection". There is also no obligation for them to tell their real opinion.

I have a difficult time believing that a classic iconic EM would sell any worse than, say, a late 80s Gottlieb like Lights Camera Action. And this doubly applies for the highly requested early solid state pins (like say Eight Ball Deluxe or Xenon) that we *know* there's demand for.

Yet they made Lights Camera Action.

Go figure.

 

[DokkenRokken]

So I asked again, directly, on the FB page:


There's a big debate going on over at TPA Fan Forum in regards to EMs. We all know that, in the past, you guys have said that EM's have sold poorly, aren't very requested, and are mostly just not worth doing, but despite all that, there's a group of people that don't really buy this.

Here's a sample of a few comments and arguments:

- "There is still the logic problem of saying em's don't sell well. If they based the future of solid state tables off of the sales figures for genie, el dorado, lights camera action, goin nuts and teed off, we would have no pinball arcade to discuss.
They released 3 mediocre em games (I like big shot quite a bit but it doesn't compare to many tables of that era) that are not well regarded or popular and have allowed that to dictate their entire philosophy. Have them release a game ranked in the top ten em polls from gottlieb (since they have no limit) and see if that does better. If so great and release a few more QUALITY AND WELL REGARDED EMs down the road. If it doesn't sell at least they have a leg to stand in on the argument. I personally don't buy it for now. Two turds and one above average table sold poorly? Who would have thought!?!"

- "Good point. EMs sold poorly but they are in packs. That would suggest the packs they are in are low sellers then? So Scared Stiff and Cactus Canyon must have done quite poorly as well? Season 1 did have certain platforms where the tables were all sold individually so you could make a case for Big Shot selling poorly while it was offered on its own but there is only one other EM and it was sold as part of a pack and part of a season. How do you measure that? The pass wasn't available until well after it was released so a spike or dip would not register. I thought it was three EMs but there are only two. Hardly a reliable amount of data for any truly scientific measurement."

- "I agree with those who have brought up the point that Farsight's selection of EMs hasn't been exactly stellar. Yes, Big Shot is good, but the rest weren't exactly highly sought after pins among EM enthusiasts. It's interesting that they say so often that EMs don't sell well...which is in response to EM requests...so clearly there are people who want EMs in the game if they're making requests, but they just want better EMs than those that Farsight originally selected. However, it's much more convenient for them to copy and paste their response that they don't sell well every time a request comes in, so that's probably what they'll continue to do."

- "I have a difficult time believing that a classic iconic EM would sell any worse than, say, a late 80s Gottlieb like Lights Camera Action. And this doubly applies for the highly requested early solid state pins (like say Eight Ball Deluxe or Xenon) that we *know* there's demand for.

Yet they made Lights Camera Action.

Go figure."

So, after reviewing the comments and arguments, what say you, Farsight? Help put this debate to bed!


The response:

Well, while there's a certain group of fans that certainly have a lot of love for EMs, and request them regularly... from following fan requests here and in the forums it's quite apparent that the majority prefer solid state tables. It's true that in the past EMs were packaged with SS tables, and that makes it difficult to track sales of individual tables. What isn't so hard to track, however, is comments from fans who downloaded said packages, including beta testers during the pre-release testing. The comments generally favor the SS tables as the reason they wanted the packs, and we even had a few requests to make it so that they didn't have to buy the EM because they'd never play them.

None of this means that we here at Farsight just plain don't like EM tables, quite the contrary, we're fans of pinball in all of its forms, however we're also a business, and as such we have to consider what the majority want, especially since we're making a single table every month now. If we were to realease "aces high" or something similar we'd have a small group of very appreciative fans, and a larger group of people who don't understand why we'd do something like that when there are so many other highly requested tables we haven't gotten to yet from the SS era. There may come a time when we're able to release another EM or two, but that time is certainly not right now. We're sorry to our fans who really want some old school pinball goodness, but for now it'll have to wait.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Well, that just further proves the point....Aces High? That's another terrible pick, lol. Sure SS pins will always be more popular, but we're right that they should've chose better EMs . Maybe if they actually picked the best EMs then more people would've liked them...but it's too late now.

 

[DokkenRokken]

Well, that just further proves the point....Aces High? That's another terrible pick, lol. Sure SS pins will always be more popular, but we're right that they should've chose better EMs . Maybe if they actually picked the best EMs then more people would've liked them...but it's too late now.

I think "Aces High" was just an example, but I get your point.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I think "Aces High" was just an example, but I get your point.

Aces High would surely be the one though since it was already in the PHOF collection.

 

[IGoFirstIndy]

If you want EM's, support the Zaccaria Pinball app. They have some great EMs. It'd be awesome if ASK Homework could license some Williams & Gottlieb EMS that Farsight won't touch after they're through with the Zaccaria catalogue. Or maybe Farsight would consider doing a two pack EM table if the licenses were cheaper. Or teaming it with Sorcerer as a two pack so we can finally have that table. Also my EM pick would be William's Grand Prix. Pop Bumpers Pinball south of Boston is devoted to EMs if any New Englanders in the forum need a real world fix.

 

[DokkenRokken]

Aces High would surely be the one though since it was already in the PHOF collection.

Not necessarily. I know they don't actually OWN the table, so in order to include it into TPA, they'd have to buy it first.

If they don't already own it, they'd probably go for an EM that most people would want. (I say all this in reference to the tables from the PHOF game.)

 

[Bowflex]

Aces High would be a horrible choice and is a horrible example to use. Bring up SLick Chick, Centigrade 37, Kings & Queens, Big Indian and a half dozen others and those resonate with EM fans and even non-EM fans are probably familiar with many of them. I'm glad they did admit their sales data isn't reliable as it is not. As for the comments on EMs, I wouldn't disagree with that and as a person who truly enjoys EM tables, I FULLY AGREE with the criticism for the tables that were released. Why would anyone be super amped up about the EMs we have to choose from? I don't mind playing Central Park that much but it is a frustrating game and a lot of people really hate it. Big Shot is a cool table. The most likely tables that weren't released is Jive Time and Aces High which are both completely bleh. Those tables deserve to be criticized. Until a quality table is put forth I just don't fell that Farsight is utilizing the best source of information on that particular niche. I certainly don't think they should be relasing a slew of EMs either but one QUALITY EM table every 10-12 months would be nice.

 

[BStarfire]

Actual sales data is probably a moot point as it's simply a matter of opportunity cost. For any given EM produced, would it sell more than a different SS table they could have done instead? Of course, a great EM might sell better than the worst SS but it's always a balance of producing one table vs sacrificing another since they do one a month.

So I'm curious how much would have to be guaranteed to make an EM pack worthwhile. I'd contribute money up front towards a goal or something. How many preorders or contributions would be needed to make it worthwhile? If the had a fund or KS to go towards a dream EM four pack of like Slick Chick or Kings and Queens , Atlantis, Fireball... I'd easily put in a $100. Maybe that much wouldn't be needed but I wonder how much and how many people would be needed up front to make it worth them doing.

 

[DokkenRokken]

Of course, a great EM might sell better than the worst SS

I disagree with this.

I doubt even "Fireball" would sell better than something as bad as LCA.

 

[BStarfire]

I disagree with this.

I doubt even "Fireball" would sell better than something as bad as LCA.

I said 'might' just to entertain the theoretical but unlikely possibility, though I agree with you. Thus, the only way to get an EM pack is if we raise enough money up front to make it worthwhile for them to do, whatever that amount, realistic or not, might be.

 

[Bowflex]

I disagree with this.

I doubt even "Fireball" would sell better than something as bad as LCA.

You're probably right but Fireball has a nice gimmick built in and I would love to see it happen. Very fun table and way better than the SS versions. Of course El Dorado was the same way and the SS version is pretty lame. I would be more than happy to put my money where my mouth is and donate generously to an EM kickstarter. The only other problem is finding a good EM table for sale. They are not as common in general, especially in good condition.

 

[BStarfire]

Do they need to buy them or borrow? Having just been there, Vegas hall of fame had good condition Kings and Queens, Fireball, and Atlantis.

 

[rehtroboi40]

If you want EM's, support the Zaccaria Pinball app. They have some great EMs. It'd be awesome if ASK Homework could license some Williams & Gottlieb EMS that Farsight won't touch after they're through with the Zaccaria catalogue. Or maybe Farsight would consider doing a two pack EM table if the licenses were cheaper. Or teaming it with Sorcerer as a two pack so we can finally have that table. Also my EM pick would be William's Grand Prix. Pop Bumpers Pinball south of Boston is devoted to EMs if any New Englanders in the forum need a real world fix.

ASK Homework's Zaccaria + Steam = 1 done deal for me!

Seriously, I can't really enjoy pinball on a phone. The screen is too small for me and I don't care for the touch screen controls.
It's just a matter of personal preference.

Now back to TPA matters. My choices for EMs include Xenon, EBD, Lost World, Fathoms, or Royal Flush. But being that FarSight is a business, I guess we'll just see more tables with cows and DOHOs.

 

[DokkenRokken]

Of course El Dorado was the same way and the SS version is pretty lame.

I honestly think "El Dorado" is the worst table I've ever played, and probably the most worthless table there is. I truly can't imagine a table that's much worse than that one.

By all means, take that table out and replace with "Fireball". lol

 

[Crawley]

I honestly think "El Dorado" is the worst table I've ever played, and probably the most worthless table there is. I truly can't imagine a table that's much worse than that one.

To be somewhat fair El Dorado is a classic EM as there's been 7 different versions of the same table layout done. After playing each of the versions, but Canada Dry, I can say Farsight probably chose the worst one out the seven. They should have either done the original EM or the Target Alpha version. Although I love the layout of El Dorado City of Gold, its drop-target heaven, I just can't stand the constant drum sound and cheesy sound effects.