Exactly how are TPA tables easier than the real thing?

[canuck]

Difficulty slider would be awesome

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Difficulty slider would be awesome

There have been several discussions about this before...while I agree it would be awesome, apparently it would cost FarSight a lot of time in retuning the tables once for each difficulty option. I had suggested a method to minimize this time by correcting physics issues in the first pass, saving the result as the "hard" table, and then tuning for difficulty in a second pass for the "easy" table, but I guess it's not that simple.

 

[canuck]

I guess it just goes to show how difficult it is to simulate gravity

 

[Dinosaur Toy]

The way I see it, no matter how advanced the physics simulation there will always be one big cheat: the ability to nudge the table easily, precisely, and get the nudge you want 100% of the time.

Since, let's face it, RL pinball machines are designed to drain the ball and take your quarter. Nudging the table was a counter to this, to partially defeat the tablet's intrinsic design. But nudging a table is hard in real life. So a digital pinball table that supports easy nudging, will always be a lot easier than playing the real thing.

I'm not even complaining about that, just thinking that's the way it is.

 

[superballs]

I guess it just goes to show how difficult it is to simulate gravity

Gravity, every changing friction coefficients, most tables have tiny imperfections that have an effect on ball path. Spin hasn't been implemented yet, there are a lot of things that are going to make the tables less predictable.

Gravity is only a constant in the whole picture.

 

[Bowflex]

Thus far I would say Cactus Canyon is far more difficult on TPA than in real life based on the 3 tables I've played of this game.

 

[smbhax]

Flippers in TPA may be longer than standard flippers, making it easier to prevent center drains. ST:TNG has the regulation 3" flippers, for instance, but the lower flippers in TPA's version of Twilight Zone are 3.2".

 

[Fungi]

Flippers in TPA may be longer than standard flippers, making it easier to prevent center drains. ST:TNG has the regulation 3" flippers, for instance, but the lower flippers in TPA's version of Twilight Zone are 3.2".

I think this needs it's own thread. This seems a fairly significant find, and FS should be made aware of it. Or, FS should be aware that we've noticed it. Although, I like TZ's flippers and would rather have TNG's flippers bigger.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Flippers in TPA may be longer than standard flippers, making it easier to prevent center drains. ST:TNG has the regulation 3" flippers, for instance, but the lower flippers in TPA's version of Twilight Zone are 3.2".

Are we sure this is actually true and not an illusion? If the camera angle and distance is not exactly the same, the flippers could appear to be different sizes when projected onto a 2D screen, even if they are physically the same size. Not saying this is the case...I don't have the meshes to make precise measurements. But it's something to consider.

 

[brakel]

I think the thread that they are linking to is comparing the flipper size and ball size with the ball cradled by the flipper.

 

[Fungi]

Are we sure this is actually true and not an illusion? If the camera angle and distance is not exactly the same, the flippers could appear to be different sizes when projected onto a 2D screen, even if they are physically the same size. Not saying this is the case...I don't have the meshes to make precise measurements. But it's something to consider.

Well, the key is the matching of the ball size. The ball to flipper ratio should not change if they are all indeed 3" flippers.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Well, the key is the matching of the ball size. The ball to flipper ratio should not change if they are all indeed 3" flippers.

Not necessarily true if the camera angle changes. The ball is a sphere, meaning it will project to the same size at any camera angle so long as the distance is unchanged. But the flipper is (roughly) a line, and its projection onto the screen will change depending on angle. In the extreme case (camera in same z-plane as flipper and looking along its axis), the flipper will be smaller in terms of pixels than the ball.

 

[Fungi]

Not necessarily true if the camera angle changes. The ball is a sphere, meaning it will project to the same size at any camera angle so long as the distance is unchanged. But the flipper is (roughly) a line, and its projection onto the screen will change depending on angle. In the extreme case (camera in same z-plane as flipper and looking along its axis), the flipper will be smaller in terms of pixels than the ball.

I've thought of that too. But the angles would have to be significantly different from each other to generate the amount of size discrepancy shown. I used the angles that I thought were the closest to each other.

Also, don't those TNG flippers just feel tiny to you? We have over 20 tables to choose from now, and the TNG flippers are the only ones that feel smaller than they should. Even the tables with the 2" flippers feel better to me.

 

[superballs]

I've thought of that too. But the angles would have to be significantly different from each other to generate the amount of size discrepancy shown. I used the angles that I thought were the closest to each other.

Also, don't those TNG flippers just feel tiny to you? We have over 20 tables to choose from now, and the TNG flippers are the only ones that feel smaller than they should. Even the tables with the 2" flippers feel better to me.

It's funny though I never seem to drain much down the middle in strong, always that damn right outlane.

 

[Fungi]

It's funny though I never seem to drain much down the middle in strong, always that damn right outlane.

It's all about control. The more control I have with a longer flipper, the more likely I won't hit a trap that takes the ball to the outlane.

 

[Mark W**a]

Finely tuned Twilight Zones, like the ones in recent papa tournament footage, have a near perfect kickout. Also, Funhouse.

Vids on Papa YouTube if you don't believe me. There's at least 3 recent that all have Twilight Zone. It's also two different machines, because they had to switch out one that had a bad diverter.

Also I can do a video myself and show how our local, beat to crap Twilight Zone also has a 100% reliable kickout.

The only thing they need to do is make them faster. AfM especially is noticeable how slow the kick out is.

 

[neilpinbot]

Finely tuned Twilight Zones, like the ones in recent papa tournament footage, have a near perfect kickout. Also, Funhouse.

Vids on Papa YouTube if you don't believe me. There's at least 3 recent that all have Twilight Zone. It's also two different machines, because they had to switch out one that had a bad diverter.

Also I can do a video myself and show how our local, beat to crap Twilight Zone also has a 100% reliable kickout.

The only thing they need to do is make them faster. AfM especially is noticeable how slow the kick out is.

Hi, I still "IMO" think that the kick-outs in TPA are too 100% perfect, on TZ for instance you know 100% that you can dead flipper pass from the slot machine and catch the ball on the left flipper, there is zero chance that the ball might have a bit more speed one time and roll of the end of the flipper if you try to catch it or if the ball was slightly slower it would hit the left flipper too close to the tip to catch it. I have not had chance to play a lot real pinball in a lot of years so you could be correct about the precision on a well maintained machine.

 

[smbhax]

There WAS a PAPA tournament video of Twilight Zone--not sure if it was recent, but I watched it in the past couple of months I think--where a dude waited for the bounceover from the kickout like everyone else, and it did NOT come to the flipper like he expected and he lost the ball. Even Bowen and the other announcer were surprised!

EDIT: Ah, found it, it was Derek Fugate's ball 2 in 2012 Pinburgh Group R's Round of 24. Ouch!

 

[neilpinbot]

There WAS a PAPA tournament video of Twilight Zone--not sure if it was recent, but I watched it in the past couple of months I think--where a dude waited for the bounceover from the kickout like everyone else, and it did NOT come to the flipper like he expected and he lost the ball. Even Bowen and the other announcer were surprised!

EDIT: Ah, found it, it was Derek Fugate's ball 2 in 2012 Pinburgh Group R's Round of 24. Ouch!

I remember when I used to play a real street fighter 11 table that the side saucers would often kick the ball out right to wards the center drain and no-one wants that. I just feel that on a real mechanical table that you have to be on your guard as to the behavior of the ball from the kick outs where as on TPA at the moment its an exact behavior every time. Jeff did give a link where bobby said that some randomness from the kick-outs might be implemented in the future.