farsite vp and fp

[Worf]

Farsight's not likely to do anything. They can't, really because all the Farsight IP isn't used in VP and FP. It's up to the license holders to actually do something.

Given its lasted this long, it's quite unlikely that anything would happen - the VP/FP communities have done most of the damage themselves.

One should also note that stuff like PHoF and TPA actually originated from people who were huge contributors to VP and FP.

 

[karl]

OK. Warning: Long idiotic Rant coming. Nothing to see here. Move along

First a quote from Worf: "Farsight's not likely to do anything. They can't, really because all the Farsight IP isn't used in VP and FP." Worf, I agree with everything else you said but not this.

Of course they can. They can order the community to remove any Gottlieb, Williams, Bally, Data east, Sega, Stern etc tables from VP or FP sites. They have a monopoly license agreement for all those tables on all digital platforms not just the ones they have put out. If Farisight say do not continue to host those tables and the vp and FP community do not listen they could theoretically demand the close-down of those sites.

I think it is a fair question from UW and one that will get more relevant in the weeks to come (especially if Farsight release a cab version eventually)
But I hold Bobby to his statement that they will not go after the VP or FP crowd. The only thing I see as a faint potential problem is if in the unlikely scenario that the pc version is really bad and people start pestering them about how much better VP is on a cabinet and why don't they do it more like vp etc, etc. they can get to a point where enough is enough. Not gonna happen I know, but I am twisting my mind here to find any reason at all there could be any problems.

But they are a cool, nice bunch of pinball enthusiasts and they will be shooting themselves in the foot if they go on a rampage so it is never gonna happen unless VP or FP becomes a money thing and authors start to charge money for their recreations.

I think we can all sleep (or play pinball) at night knowing nothing is gonna happen

 

[Jeff Strong]

I agree with karl. Very well said, my friend.

 

[Slam23]

As a long time VP user I was a bit shocked to find out that this is actually an ongoing topic, I wouldn't have seen this coming myself (probably a bit naieve). I do hope that sane heads prevail and farsight recognizes the substantial overlap between TPA and VP/FP users and the risk to alienate. If it should come to a conflict, I would be interested to see how the whole ROM thing plays out though. Aside from VP tables using scans of existing (licensed) art, the main issue would be the fact that VP offers ROMs for download. There are significant disclaimers though, one at the moment of download, the second when first starting up VP with a new rom. It does ask the user if he/she owns the right to play those roms. Maybe this is very thin when it comes to actual copyright law, but good intent is there. Anyway let's hope this plays out well for all involved.
@Shockman: it would be nice if we would refrain from bringing over VP drama, it's bad enough there is yet again a schism looming, let's not pollute the TPA fan forum. What is the point anyway, what is to be gained, even if you are completely right on all counts? That's my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[Baron Rubik]

I would be interested to see how the whole ROM thing plays out though. Aside from VP tables using scans of existing (licensed) art, the main issue would be the fact that VP offers ROMs for download.

IPDB has roms for download too.

 

[Shockman]

Yeah, roms certainly are not the main point, except for the copyrighted material in them. I too agree with karl. A license holder does not have to produce a product to hold that license unless it was part of the deal, which in this case is very unlikely because the license is broad, licensing of all the studio's IP, not on a table by table basis I gather. And it would not work that way anyway. Farsight, nor the real pinball companies own the IP that was licensed to them, so farsight would have to secure separate licenses from the movie studios, at least, but possibly music studios, not to mention persons likeness that was only licensed to that one project in the first place. So having a stern license and a marvel license for a particular movie theme pinball video game for example does not mean even Farsight could do a stern table with a fox theme. These cost money, but would be devalued by another pinball video game, commercial or freeware.

As for Visual Pinball being better, it depends on your style of play. If it is to slap at the ball whenever it is in the range of the flippers, then VP might do, even if the vector of the ball is not logical or predictable, which it is not even close with that style of play. But if your style is to play the table and manipulate the ball, use nudge, and skilled plunging, then Visual Pinball falls to pieces. Maybe Pinball Arcade is the same, I don't know, but if it even compares to Visual Pinball, then Farsights' days are already numbered, unless their products price range compares to Visual Pinballs' too. IE. free.

 

[Hugh Jorgen]

Shockman has arrived.

 

[superballs]

I think I lost iq points reading through shockman's posts.

That being said, I'll try and behave. As a huge fan of vp and someone who owns 3 versions if tpa, if farsight went after vp I would immediately stop purchasing tpa.

I trust that they won't. From what I see from them, they are a group of stand up guys who love pinball.

 

[unclewilly]

Wow shockman has arrived.
Maybe we should close the topic now.

Maybe you might want to ask someone to send you some of the newer tables shocky, specifically the ball momentum tables by jimmy fingers. I think even you might be impressed shocky.

I'll upload my bbb update to pinball nirvana so you can check it out, as well as the most recent revision of co
Anyways.... This topic was so old I forgot I posted it.

In essence it wouldn't really matter if tos went after co or fp. The communities would still exist, the table sharing would just go underground. They couldn't stop the development of vp, and many tables are only shared outside of the sites already due to certain agreements with pinball manufacturers.

Ask any ultrapin owner, they have had access to some of the newer stern table for quite a few years now

 

[karl]

I am getting a virtuapin from Noah soon so I guess there will be a long long time until I can play any of those newer Stern games :-( if there isn't a super cool dude out there who would suddenly pm me a link to join the secret society.

Man, I would love to try some of those tables. There is so much talent going on in the visual pinball community.

Btw UW: Thanks for your splendid update to your already very nice BBB. It got a bit harder(I like it) with the new physics but it is a super improvement. Great ball physics and beautiful updated graphics and light show. Can't wait to see what's coming next from you. I just love the fact that VP is still getting better and better every year

 

[Mayuh]

Let me AOL here: Me too!

btw, I suspect a few devs of those 'serious' programs to be heavily involved in those grey area programs too. And this is (obviously) a good thing... I know at least 3 of them doing a great job developing some cutting edge programs AND participating in the 'scene'. It's not that illegal as it was in the C=64 or Amiga times, but there are a few that share their talents. And (meanwhile) as a customer and regular consumer (spending a lot of money either buying things or donating) I can only appreciate that. Thank you all devs/creators out there!

 

[Clawhammer]

The backlash from taking action against VP from VP/FP fans, many of which probably also play TPA, seems like it would be much worse than any sort of gain they might attain from it. Still, seems way too early to speculate on this.

 

[Shockman]

It's never too early to speculate about law. This notion gets people into trouble. People should always speculate on this.

The backlash of not taking action would set a precedent that they could surely not afford. You think they would spend many thousands then imply through inaction that that spending was for no purpose?

VP products, hardware, software, applications, are not free. The exclusiveness of the recreated tables, the inside trading of taboo tables, the elimination of features that make it useful without the commercial hardware that VPF is selling, and the banning of people that would dare to say that VP is less than perfect and going backwards in some respects should either be the death of VPF, or Farsight is the fools of the world for paying a penny for any rights.

 

[DaPinballWizard]

I love VP. That said, I would prefer to have TPA tables IF they are of comparable quality. That is yet to be seen. I have hope that I will be able to replace VP tables with TPA ones eventually.
Try as they might, they would not be able to stop VP. It would just go underground.
I think it is in FarSights best interest to look the other way. Most VP users are TPA users. They would open up a nasty can of worms if they did anything.

 

[Punisher]

I don't think that FS would do anything, regarding VP. I mean, I heard that Stern didn't really have any problems with their tables being emulated. From what I see, the engine TPA uses is far more reliable than VP/FP's. I've had tables where the ball would phase right through the flipper, or magically jump onto another habitrail that wasn't even close to the one that the ball was on in VP. I'd say they won't clash any time soon.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

It's never too early to speculate about law. This notion gets people into trouble. People should always speculate on this.

The backlash of not taking action would set a precedent that they could surely not afford. You think they would spend many thousands then imply through inaction that that spending was for no purpose?

VP products, hardware, software, applications, are not free. The exclusiveness of the recreated tables, the inside trading of taboo tables, the elimination of features that make it useful without the commercial hardware that VPF is selling, and the banning of people that would dare to say that VP is less than perfect and going backwards in some respects should either be the death of VPF, or Farsight is the fools of the world for paying a penny for any rights.

First, the...

OBLIGATORY DISCLAIMER: I neither work for FarSight, nor speak officially on their behalf.

Even if this were all true, it does not follow that FarSight should be the ones to go after VP for its licensing problems, nor that it would make business sense for FarSight to do so. Lawsuits have costs, both in dollars and in reputation...and there would be a lot of reputation lost, since many/most users of VP probably don't know/care about the legal aspects and all they would see is FarSight trying to shut down a game they've enjoyed for years.

Nor does the existence of legally-questionable VP tables automatically mean that there is not value to FarSight in obtaining and paying for proper licenses. As long as FarSight stays within the terms of their license agreements, they can operate with minimal risk of legal trouble. This is huge for a corporation that would have assets at risk in any adverse litigation, as well as to its employees who would lose their jobs and income if an adverse judgment caused FarSight to shut down.

I still think that the most threat TPA would pose to VP is that one of FarSight's licensors earns income from FarSight for their properties and then notices that they are not getting any income from VP using those same properties, and sues for infringement. But as I said a year ago, a licenseholder could go after VP at any time. TPA is not necessary for this legal risk to be present.

 

[Shockman]

Farsight might take the position that the money spent on the rights to do this was just to spend money and not to actually buy something, that is true. They might also be stupid enough to allow some to infringe and actually sue others. They will have to answer for the position they take though, that much is certain.

 

[Shockman]

First, the...

OBLIGATORY DISCLAIMER: I neither work for FarSight, nor speak officially on their behalf.

Even if this were all true, it does not follow that FarSight should be the ones to go after VP for its licensing problems, nor that it would make business sense for FarSight to do so. Lawsuits have costs, both in dollars and in reputation...and there would be a lot of reputation lost, since many/most users of VP probably don't know/care about the legal aspects and all they would see is FarSight trying to shut down a game they've enjoyed for years.

Nor does the existence of legally-questionable VP tables automatically mean that there is not value to FarSight in obtaining and paying for proper licenses. As long as FarSight stays within the terms of their license agreements, they can operate with minimal risk of legal trouble. This is huge for a corporation that would have assets at risk in any adverse litigation, as well as to its employees who would lose their jobs and income if an adverse judgment caused FarSight to shut down.

I still think that the most threat TPA would pose to VP is that one of FarSight's licensors earns income from FarSight for their properties and then notices that they are not getting any income from VP using those same properties, and sues for infringement. But as I said a year ago, a licenseholder could go after VP at any time. TPA is not necessary for this legal risk to be present.

If they stay within the terms then there would be no risk. Unless they build in support for Virtuapin cabs as they have been asked to. Then they would be the only legal part of that, software wise, and that is only if their license is to create content for any platform they wanted to which I doubt is the case. To partner with Virtuapin in any way, to ignore the content of VPF which for all intents and purposes they will own, and to selectively reserve their rights, would be unwise.

Of course TPA is not necessary, but who do you think TPA paid for these rights? You are right that VPforums is not in the mercy of just TPA, in relations to this IP, but many studios, anyone of which could wonder what it means to sell license of their IP to farsight. If Farsight makes Virtuapin (a platform built for copyright infringement) a target platform then you know what the answer is, and they do too.

 

[neilpinbot]

I used VP many years back when it was the only way to play table recreations and I thought it was/is amazing. But being an average PC user found it tricky to get running. Now a few years and PC's on I can play thanks to FARSIGHT, amazing recreations on my Android tablet and console in seconds and very soon on PC. For me taking the time and effort to get back into setting VP back up on my PC just doesn't seem worth the effort. I know I'm missing out on some tables that will never be on TPA and maybe sometime in the future I might give it another try.
Just trying to say that there is probably thousands of TPA players who have no idea about VP and if they did how to set it up. I can't see FARSIGHT spending a fortune trying to close down what is probably a small threat to the income they get from their sales.

 

[Nightwing]

I used VP many years back when it was the only way to play table recreations and I thought it was/is amazing. But being an average PC user found it tricky to get running. Now a few years and PC's on I can play thanks to FARSIGHT, amazing recreations on my Android tablet and console in seconds and very soon on PC. For me taking the time and effort to get back into setting VP back up on my PC just doesn't seem worth the effort. I know I'm missing out on some tables that will never be on TPA and maybe sometime in the future I might give it another try.
Just trying to say that there is probably thousands of TPA players who have no idea about VP and if they did how to set it up. I can't see FARSIGHT spending a fortune trying to close down what is probably a small threat to the income they get from their sales.

I agree,and I also think that VP/FP are probably safe,at least from the people who own the rights to the actual tables. Why? Because of what I just said.

Unlike MAME,which takes the original game,or ROM - and allows it to be the exact same game,at least in terms of playability. The physical things surrounding the ROM might be different (PC,monitor,controller) than the original arcade cabinet - but the game plays exactly the same in MAME as it would in its original form.

Pinball,however - is a totally different animal. VP/FP & TPA for that matter,are recreating those tables,but in the end all of those programs are running simulated games,and not an actual,physical thing. I don't care how advanced those programs get - they will never replace the bells & whistles of an actual,physical pinball machine. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE TPA (and someday I'll have a PC with the right video card to run VP/FP and enjoy it). But it will never be the same as playing an original physical pinball table with switches,flippers,and the like. Yes you can use the ROM for a particular digital table,but all that does is handle the rulesets - everything else is still simulated..

If anything,I would think if there are any future legal issues with VP/FP that it would be from the licensed tables - (for example - Disney who owen the rights to Star Wars,TRON,and Indiana Jones)