Flipper Friction needed: This can improve most/all tables

[robx46]

I posted about this a few days back on FB, but who knows if anybody who matters actually will get that note. One thing that has been bugging me lately with TPA is just how fast the ball rolls along the flippers. To really see what I mean, simply cradle the ball to a stop, then let go. See how fast the ball rolls toward the drain. The ball goes from a complete stop to pretty damn fast in what in real life would be like 3 inches. It is like there is a little too much gravity as well as the flippers being made out of ice.

I kept assuming that this would be addressed at some point or would at least be a topic of discussion, but its been how many months now & still nothing, so I figured I'd talk about it. It could really improve all tables. Though for some odd reason, NGG seems to not be as bad as the other tables. So I'm not sure if this was addressed, but it could still probably be a little better. It doesn't feel like there is any less table slope or anything. & so that leads to my thinking that the best (or at least quickest) way to fix this is adding some friction to those flippers.
The Pro Pinball games are a good example of how all this should work, maybe even the hall of fame games do this well but I don't remember.
In fact Zen pinball flippers might even go too far the other way with this, in that their flippers might have too much friction. Even if that is true it feels better than having too little. This is all a real issue especially on PS3 where I still have a little flipper lag. The flipper lag combined with the speed that ball rolls down the flipper means that I've got shots seriously tailing off to the sides. Eventually I calibrate my play, but damn.

I'm telling you guys that if you can improve this on the tables it will go a long way in making TPA feel even better to play. Of course this is 1 of a few things that could be improved, but this might be a good one to start with.

 

[Fungi]

Like

 

[robx46]

I wanted to bump this because the only response I got is some guy saying "Like". I feel like this is a pretty major issue, & I've followed up on it. I've noticed that fewer tables on Android have this problem, or it is there just not quite as bad. Again, Zen Pinball does this well, if not a little too well. Pro Pinball does this well too. Gorgar is a good example. Just played it on iOS & PS3, definitely very noticeable on both. A little better on the android version but its still an issue.

To make sure I'm not talking nonsense, I just went down & played a few games on my real pins, just for more confirmation on this. Even on my BK2K, a pretty fast game, when you first let go of the flipper the ball really isn't moving very fast. This is really just physics 101. Go to the top of a hill, set a ball on top of it, the ball will start rolling slowly & pick up steam as it rolls.
Just wanted to note that that while at first I thought this issue would be the same across all platforms, it does seem a little better on some android tables but could be better.

 

[Bonzo]

Like

;P

 

[Jeff Strong]

Definitely agree Rob. This would help a ton.

The inlane acceleration in general needs toned down as well.

 

[Bonzo]

Sorry for the last post, couldn't resist (And calling Fungi "some guy" wasn't that nice either). You're making a good point, robx46.

 

[Kolchak357]

Definitely agree Rob. This would help a ton.

The inlane acceleration in general needs toned down as well.

Yes and yes!

 

[shutyertrap]

I've never even thought about that with the flippers, and of course now I'm not going to be able to not!

Its interesting, cause I think the one area of all the tables that needs the most attention is the flippers. Whether it be this idea of friction, or the bounciness, or the ability to do light taps, or even the ball going through them issue, it seems a lot of effort put into them would provide an even better payout at the end. After all, it is the one source of interface we have with the table!

Really wonder how complex the coding is for flippers. It can't be easy.

 

[Fungi]

No but seriously, I'm not just some guy. I'm Fungi. (heh, see what I did there?)

And I "liked" it because I also "liked" it when you made the point on FB. Still like it now. And yes Jeff, what is the deal with the right inlanes? It's not just MM that supercharges the ball.

 

[Richard B]

FS did say they are working on improving the flipper interaction, but haven't said anything since. Flipper interaction is one of the most important aspects of pinball, as it is the one area where you have the most control over. Vote for this on the "ask Bobby" poll, so we'll get an updated answer.

 

[smbhax]

And if they really want to get fancy in the upcoming tournament features they could even go so far as to have different tournament rule sets that install different types of rubber bands around the flippers--putting bouncier rubber on to make the game more challenging, for instance. : )

 

[robx46]

Ha! Didn't mean to call you "some guy". My point was that I thought more people would be interested (or at least aware) of this issue. I'm able to test on pretty much every platform. What I've noticed lately is for some reason, Android is a little better. Just a minute ago I loaded up Big Shot onto my ipad & android table. Cradled the ball on the right flipper on ipad, hit pause. Cradled the ball on the right flipper on android as well. I then simultaneously let go of the flipper on each tablet. Sure enough, the ball hits the drain faster on my ipad. Yet I find this problem not even as bad on this table (maybe due to less slope) compared to others such as MM, but still noticeable. Another table I was surprised this was pretty bad on was EATPM on iOS. Which is a shame because otherwise that is such a nice table.

So... why is it that android of all platforms might have the best physics? Surprised that physics are any different at all between platforms. Even 15+ years ago the physics on Pro Pinball tables for PC & the same tables for PSX matched perfectly. Tables are sooo pretty on my ipad3 retina display. If this issue was fixed, it is 1 less issue I can be annoyed about & really enjoy all the tables.
I absolutely agree, what good is pinball without top notch physics. I think most of us will gladly sacrifice visuals in favor of great physics (if it came down to that). They have been doing pinball for many years now, you would hope that they would have some of these fixable physics issues sorted out by now. I hate to say it, but go back to Pro Pinball, even Zen Pinball 2. Yes the flippers are supercharged, but the flipper physics themselves on Zen 2 are pretty good in many ways (they can even respond OK to some quick taps), & the game is the same (consistent) whether its my ipad, android, & PS3 & 360 (FX2). I'm not saying TPA flipper physics are bad. They are otherwise pretty damn good, & with a couple of these details worked out they could end up equaling Pro Pinball physics.

They have improved the bounciness which I'm happy to see, it is definitely toned down. Then, I also agree the ability to do flipper taps would be great as well. I just wanted to be vocal about this particular issue because since it can differ a bit from platform to platform, I wondered if they are as aware of it as I hope they are. If not, hopefully they see this. Also you would think this would be a setting (such as friction on flippers) that not only could be somewhat easy to add, but just add it to the game engine to where it would apply to all tables all at once. Surely rubber friction can't be hard to add. I can even add that in Visual Pinball!

 

[Carl Spiby]

The amount of times I've let a ball drop on to a flipper so it could bounce over, only for it to skid down the flipper and drain

 

[brakel]

Sometimes when you make a good point in a good way, nothing more needs to be said. You original post was just too good!

I just wish suggestions like this would flow freely from the forum to the fingertips at farsight. I was a little disappointed to read that farsight probably won't be going back and tweaking the overall ball physics of tables that have already been published. Reading into this, I guess they might tweak the flippers and fix flipper issues but maybe only for future tables. I just thought before today that they would eventually fix all the tables issues. Now maybe not.

 

[Carl Spiby]

It does seem strange that they won't go back to the older tables and fix them, but I guess they have our money now so why should they?

Can you tell I'm in a particularly cynical mood today?

 

[Squid]

If you scratch a cynic, all you find underneath is a disappointed idealist.

 

[shutyertrap]

I was a little disappointed to read that farsight probably won't be going back and tweaking the overall ball physics of tables that have already been published. Reading into this, I guess they might tweak the flippers and fix flipper issues but maybe only for future tables. I just thought before today that they would eventually fix all the tables issues. Now maybe not.

Perhaps what we need to do then is encourage FarSight to compare how the early tables feel versus the newer releases. My version of reading into this is that each table will need its own specific tweaking, and since its not just a simple input of 'here's the new code' that can be applied over multiple tables, they're not likely to do it. Too busy with other things. Encouraging them to look at behavior in the ball with Creature vs. MM, like I tried to do. Ultimately I think it comes down to the flippers, as that is where I notice the most differences between tables. But we need them to recognize it by looking at 2 different tables for comparison purposes.

 

[jaredmorgs]

And if they really want to get fancy in the upcoming tournament features they could even go so far as to have different tournament rule sets that install different types of rubber bands around the flippers--putting bouncier rubber on to make the game more challenging, for instance. : )

Yeah, like fitting black rubbers instead of red rubbers (black being less bouncy). Cool idea.

 

[robx46]

They won't go back & fix older tables? Why? Where did you guys read this? This is a problem, because this particular issue is STILL HAPPENING even with the latest releases on platforms not named Android. Which means we are going on 20+ of the best tables in the world that have issues but will never be improved because they happened to get released before kinks were worked out? They really can't tweak the engine when an issue is universal across all tables? So frustrating that they have improved this on newer android tables, but android pretty much looks like crap once you play PS3/iOS versions (& I can't play PS3 due to flipper lag driving me nuts). Yet I still buy tables for each platform since I want to support the product, but I might think twice if they aren't even willing to go back & improve existing tables. They should be doing whatever it takes to make tables play like the real thing. If there is a simple setting that can be tweaked that helps out, then they need to do it.

The combination of flipper lag & this friction issue on the PS3 is insane, even on a table just released yesterday (EATPM), the ball flies down the flipper on a cradled ball very fast, then add on top of that the flipper lag, & I can barely even get a flip on the ball before it hits the drain.

I have to wonder if devs want to fix these things but they aren't really allowed to. Either way I'd love to hear from somebody about this. It really is bothering me enough that I'm mostly playing Zen or VP lately, which is a shame. It shouldn't have to be that way, but like with Zen, at least the physics keep improving & are consistent across tables & I know I won't have any bugs. & this isn't a threat, I'll keep buying TPA tables, its just the truth. But I worry that if things don't keep improving, that other people will do this same thing, but they may not wish to keep buying tables. Not everybody wants to waiting months & months (or forever) for certain things to be fixed, simple things.

 

[smbhax]

Yeah I'm not sure where this idea that they won't tweak older tables came from, given that new updates usually do feature a lot of tweaks (sometimes causing new bugs to previous tables.

Surely rubber friction can't be hard to add.

If there is a simple setting that can be tweaked that helps out, then they need to do it.

Things are rarely simple in game design!