Hey Farsight, Take a Break!

[Ark Malmeida]

Thanks for all of the info Mike! I think the reason that a lot of us are so supportive of TPA is the fact that you and some of your fellow Farsight employees actually take the time to read and respond to posts in this forum. To me it shows how much you all are invested in, and care for the product you are working on. Keep up the great work!

 

[Nightwing]

Thanks for all of the info Mike! I think the reason that a lot of us are so supportive of TPA is the fact that you and some of your fellow Farsight employees actually take the time to read and respond to posts in this forum. To me it shows how much you all are invested in, and care for the product you are working on. Keep up the great work!

Exactly. There are many companies that don't do this,or if they do...then it's a rare thing. There are at least 4 FS employees that either post here or give information here on TPA. That is a good thing.

While I understand that the game has bugs,the fact remains that FS has worked on TPA tables that have had issues after they have been released. STTNG is on rev.7 on iOS. Many tables have had 6 revisions. And they are still working on those bugs - while running their business.

And make no mistake - while TPA might be very passionate for the people who work at Farsight - they are still running a business. And it takes money to do so. And it can run out & have your business go under pretty damned quick.

I live in RI. You want an example of above??? Go look up 38 Studios...

Speaking for myself only - on this topic, as long as FS continues to work on making TPA better,then I'm happy with what they are doing in regards to a release schedule. I want them to keep going for as long as is economically feasible. (Especially if I can get Banzai Run )

TPA is a unique product. It's one that I'm happy to play and talk to others about. The only game (pinball in general,though I've discussed TPA several times) that I've covered more during my gaming segment on the cable access show that I do has been Rock Band - another game that has many hardcore diehard fans. I for one,will continue to support it.

 

[DanBradford]

Thanks for all of the info Mike! I think the reason that a lot of us are so supportive of TPA is the fact that you and some of your fellow Farsight employees actually take the time to read and respond to posts in this forum. To me it shows how much you all are invested in, and care for the product you are working on. Keep up the great work!

completely agree, much appreciated

 

[Samandor]

Great thread! If a n00b may add some thoughts:

Other ways to add sales apart from new tables might be to add play functionality to Pro versions that doesn't preclude competitive scoring, and add functions to unite portables with consoles (thus another reason to buy games for more than one platform).

For instance - adding support for a second device or screen to be used as a functioning backglass, and more support for Bluetooth controller devices on desktop platforms would better justify Pro and multi-platform purchases. E.g., If I could use my iPad and modified iCade controller for proper shaken nudge and side-buttons when playing on the Mac, I'd be pretty danged happy.

The problem I have with the Pro versions is that they are interesting, but not useful. It makes sense that if you tinker with internal game options that scores in this mode don't count, but adding some playability functions as above that DO count would make the extra purchase worthwhile.

Otherwise - TPA rocks; it's just about the only worthwhile game on any platform!

 

[LanceBoyle]

I honestly wanna say that so far Pro Mode's only worth it for the uncensored Scared Stiff speech, as I don't see any other reason to upgrade.

It's cool they're giving the option, though.

 

[Ark Malmeida]

Pro mode would be totally worth it if they get cabinet support up and running for the PC. That way you can set the options (replays give actual credits instead of extra balls, etc.) to play more like a real machine does.

 

[Clawhammer]

Other ways to add sales apart from new tables might be to add play functionality to Pro versions that doesn't preclude competitive scoring

Fine idea as long as having the Pro menus doesn't become a necessity to be competitive on leaderboards or GC, like the +2 ball option on Zaccaria pinball is.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

Not true. TPA first released on iOS on Feburary 9, 2012. Android swiftly followed, and the 360 version arrived in early April. The PS3 version did not appear until a week after that.

Also, the 360 is the primary development platform from which the other platforms' tables are ported, not the PS3.

I'm talking about those of us that got turned on to PHOF with both the Gottlieb and Williams collections. I go back to PS2 and GHOF, which was my introduction to FarSight and their pinball sims. TPA is an extension of that work, IMO. The only reason I knew about TPA and FarSight is because of the PHOF collections. Which were initially developed and released for PlayStation, correct? If not, certainly the original Xbox - Android and iOS weren't even around back then. Point being, the whole concept of pinball sims started with the consoles. And now, they are the red-headed stepchild of FS's dev team. If you know that you can't fix DLC, wouldn't that motivate you to REALLY test them, before you release something you can't fix? That would seem to make sense to me.

It has already been explained in this thread and in previous threads on this topic, why it is not practical financially for FarSight to take a bug-fix break for an extended period of time.

Fixing your product so you can continue to accrue new customers thru positive reviews and word of mouth is ALWAYS financially viable. Particularly in this #socialmedia age of FB, twitter and web forums. Or have we not realized that gamers are some of the most over-the-top ranters and ravers on the internet?

You're kidding, right? The developers are on this forum - anyone with their username in bright blue works for FarSight. They are intensely interested in our feedback, at least when the members here aren't insulting them. Just one example: You know those new touch region settings on mobile devices that finally made forward and diagonal nudging possible? Those came out of user/developer discussion during a previous iOS beta.

Thanks, you just completely proved my point. iOS and mobile users get the fixes and updates they request, and on the console, we're SOL.

I take it you've never looked at the Table Master Issues Lists? I can't claim they're "official", but they're as close as possible. Over 400 issues covering every table in the game, updated every few days. I just updated it this morning...with several issues that are being fixed in the next release.

The bug I found was not a "table" specific bug. It was a 2.14 PS3 release bug, not confined to one table. Please show me where anyone in blue responded to either of these threads... the official release thread, and the bug thread - where myself and several others documented with pictures and exact steps to replicate the bug. I'm all ears.

http://digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/5082-PS3-NA-Version-2-14-Update/page3

http://digitalpinballfans.com/showt...k-on-some-tables?p=89825&viewfull=1#post89825


Not so "intensely" interested in feedback, as to even give an acknowledgement of an obvious ball/lighting bug when it's documented and brought to their attention in the appropriate threads. Or to respond to the PS3 communities requests to allow the dual-stage flipper to be adjusted or turned off, standard button and controller mapping, or god forbid, allow the use of multiple controllers for local hotseat play. Or to fix the awful pink lighting on several tables. I don't give a crap about iOS updates and fixes. I play primarily on PS3, and some on Android. iOS updates and raves about how great it plays on the iPad mean squat to me, as well as the rest of the PS3 gaming crowd. If anything, it's even MORE infuriating that everything gets fixed over there, and we're still dealing with un-playable Season One tables that have never been addressed.

A "Table Master List" is a rather poor substitute for an industry-standard set of Release Notes that goes along with each release. Or are you really going to argue that FS documents their releases and updates?

Listen I don't mean to pee on FS's parade here. I really, TRULY love TPA and PHOF and I play them daily. But I also am not the kind of guy who is going to lay out good money for a game, and just accept the fact that about 1/4 of the tables are not even as good as the game I paid $60 for 4 years ago. I try to compliment FS on their good work (which is truly, overwhelmingly positive IMO) but I also believe that factual, relevant constructive criticism is more important to the overall product quality than blowing pink smoke up someone's rear-end. The really tough part here, is that they aren't "creating" something new. What they are replicating is something that actually exists in real life. When you have played on most of these tables IRL, and then the re-creations don't measure up, there is a very real bar that is set, and often hard to attain. I get it, it's difficult. But many of the small things that we've been asking about are not hard, or particularly time-consuming, and are just flat out ignored. And that's not too cool.

 

[Billy Fishtale]

^ What a breath of fresh air to read a post like this. And its all totally correct.

 

[Zevious Zoquis]

I have to agree that the excuse that FS can't afford to stop releasing new tables long enough to fix already released ones is weak and sort of disappointing really. Frankly, I'd prefer to pay $50 for a product that had 14 or 16 tables that were free of serious bugs and were constantly improved than $50 for 50 tables of varying quality with a slew of serious and less serious issues. I bought Firepower yesterday (ios version) and within 3 games I experienced the end of game bonus score loop bug. It seems impossible to me that the table was released without knowledge of the issue so essentially they just said "meh, maybe we'll fix it later" and started taking the money...it's not like we're talking about a 99 cent iOS indie game here.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I'm talking about those of us that got turned on to PHOF with both the Gottlieb and Williams collections. I go back to PS2 and GHOF, which was my introduction to FarSight and their pinball sims. TPA is an extension of that work, IMO. The only reason I knew about TPA and FarSight is because of the PHOF collections. Which were initially developed and released for PlayStation, correct? If not, certainly the original Xbox - Android and iOS weren't even around back then. Point being, the whole concept of pinball sims started with the consoles. And now, they are the red-headed stepchild of FS's dev team. If you know that you can't fix DLC, wouldn't that motivate you to REALLY test them, before you release something you can't fix? That would seem to make sense to me.

If consoles were the "red-headed stepchildren of FS's dev team", why is FarSight is going through the trouble of developing a PS4 version, for which they are among other things going back through 35 tables and adding dynamic lighting and generally upgrading them visually, at the expense of a large portion of the artists' time? If FarSight didn't want to bother with consoles (and given the headaches the PS3 and 360 have caused, you couldn't really blame them if they had decided to give up on consoles), why the talk of XBone? Why not cut your losses with the 360 and just announce that the 360 version is being abandoned due to circumstances beyond FarSight's control and that players will receive credit for however many 360 tables they have on another platform of their choice? Why Ouya, of all things?

The point is, FarSight is not behaving in a manner consistent with consoles being a second-tier market for them.

Fixing your product so you can continue to accrue new customers thru positive reviews and word of mouth is ALWAYS financially viable. Particularly in this #socialmedia age of FB, twitter and web forums. Or have we not realized that gamers are some of the most over-the-top ranters and ravers on the internet?

As much as I'd like it to be otherwise, fixing bugs is not always financially viable. Fixing bugs requires developer time and resources. If the expected return from fixing bugs is less than the cost of fixing bugs (including PR/marketing considerations), then it makes financial sense to not fix them, period. By the way, this is almost always a management decision. Most actual programmers can't abide knowing their software has an unfixed bug.

Take Bethesda's Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. Renowned software house, AAA title, with a budget I bet FarSight could only dream of. There are eighteen hundred unfixed bugs, even after installing the last official update, and several hundred more if you have the Shivering Isles expansion pack installed. These bugs range from game-breaking (and save-file-destroying!) down to minor nuisances. If you want to get really nitpicky like we do here and call minor art issues bugs as well, then Oblivion has seventy thousand bugs. All of these bugs have gone unfixed by Bethesda; code-minded individuals of their fan community eventually created an unofficial patch to fix the vast majority of them.

Granted, Oblivion is much bigger and more complex than TPA, so there is much more that can go wrong. On the other hand, Bethesda has far more resources to devote to bug squashing than FarSight. Yet Bethesda deemed it unnecessary to fix their bugs, with the result Oblivion is known as a notoriously buggy game. They still sell it...quite a bit of it...on Steam. As far as I know (mostly from Bobby's interview with Pinball Magazine), it sounds like sales of TPA are up, too. So it might not make sense for FarSight to devote the time and resources it would take to squash every last bug.

Thanks, you just completely proved my point. iOS and mobile users get the fixes and updates they request, and on the console, we're SOL.

The consoles don't have betas because the console manufacturers have made it difficult to have betas, and it is both time-consuming and expensive to do updates on consoles. Also, it's not like the iOS testers are driving the bus and we're getting everything we want. It just so happens that a few of the suggestions made hit the sweet spot in terms of being sensible, easy to add, and easy to test. Many more are rejected because they are impractical to implement in the time available, or because it would adversely impact the other platforms' builds. (One of my own suggestions was delayed indefinitely because of the problems it would pose for the PS3!)

If having regular updates is important to you, you may want to migrate to PC when the Steam release becomes available. Then you can have 360-quality visuals (at some point improved to PS4-quality visuals, even) with the mobiles' update schedule. That's what I'm doing with the 360, since no one seems to know if FarSight will be able to self-publish on the 360 or not, and rather than howl at the moon and froth at the mouth over how much it sucks that I can't play anything past Monster Bash on the 360, I've decided to actually do something about it and move to PC.

Should we have to move off our platforms of choice in order to get what we want? In an ideal world, no. But this is not an ideal world, and sometimes we have to realize that we can either continue to tilt at windmills, or we can move on and use our time and energies more productively elsewhere.

The bug I found was not a "table" specific bug. It was a 2.14 PS3 release bug, not confined to one table. Please show me where anyone in blue responded to either of these threads... the official release thread, and the bug thread - where myself and several others documented with pictures and exact steps to replicate the bug. I'm all ears.

http://digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/5082-PS3-NA-Version-2-14-Update/page3

http://digitalpinballfans.com/showt...k-on-some-tables?p=89825&viewfull=1#post89825

You're right, they haven't responded. And I had forgotten when I posted that the PS3 lead developer is the one lead dev who for whatever reason does not actively participate in these forums. So I'll graciously concede you the point, at least on PS3. And actually, iOS had the same problem of being "ignored" on the forum up until a few months ago, even with the beta, until there was a rotation of personnel.

The only thing I can tell you is that FarSight is under zero obligation to participate here at all, so as much as we might like to tell FarSight to drag the PS3 dev in here by the nose, it's not really our place to do so.

Also, I believe this particular issue may have been recently fixed. If it has, I'm not sure if it will make the v2.15 update or not, given the PS3's submission time.

Not so "intensely" interested in feedback, as to even give an acknowledgement of an obvious ball/lighting bug when it's documented and brought to their attention in the appropriate threads. Or to respond to the PS3 communities requests to allow the dual-stage flipper to be adjusted or turned off, standard button and controller mapping, or god forbid, allow the use of multiple controllers for local hotseat play. Or to fix the awful pink lighting on several tables. I don't give a crap about iOS updates and fixes. I play primarily on PS3, and some on Android. iOS updates and raves about how great it plays on the iPad mean squat to me, as well as the rest of the PS3 gaming crowd. If anything, it's even MORE infuriating that everything gets fixed over there, and we're still dealing with un-playable Season One tables that have never been addressed.

Well, as it turns out, I don't give a crap about PS3 updates and fixes, having never owned one, so we're even. And taking a totally-unscientific approach and using the TZ backer tournament participation to estimate the relative size of the userbases, it turns out iOS has about 10 times the number of active players as PS3. Therefore, it makes business sense for FarSight to devote more attention to iOS. Whether they actually do or not is not something I have information about.

And no, not everything has been fixed in iOS-land. Ask any iOS player what s/he thinks of Cirqus Voltaire. (Although it is somewhat better-behaved than it used to be, as long as Neon Multiball doesn't come up.)

A "Table Master List" is a rather poor substitute for an industry-standard set of Release Notes that goes along with each release. Or are you really going to argue that FS documents their releases and updates?

This will infuriate you further, but iOS at least has had proper release notes since May. I'm not sure about Android or PS3, since I do not have either of those platforms available to me.

The Table Master Issues Lists are mine, not FarSight's. I created them in response to a discussion that happened after one of Bobby's audio interviews with Jeff Strong for two reasons: A) to clean up bugs reported in this forum and get them in one place, so that FarSight does not have to cover the entire forum looking for bugs, which they do not have time to do, and B) to give the members a one-stop place to check if the bug they just encountered is known and (if I know myself) what its status is and if there is any workaround in the meantime. The lists are not a replacement for FarSight's internal bug tracking systems nor are they meant to be. And yes, iOS is overrepresented there because it's the only platform I have that I play TPA on (the 360 is so far behind it doesn't really count), and so I can verify reported bugs myself, which gets them on the list faster.

If you, or anyone else reading this, have problems with the master lists or see that "your" issue(s) are not on there - I am human and do occasionally miss some, even big ones like the pink lighting - send me a friendly PM. Do give me 3 or 4 days to respond and/or change the lists. It's a volunteer effort for me, so anything at all going on in real life generally takes priority over it.

Listen I don't mean to pee on FS's parade here. I really, TRULY love TPA and PHOF and I play them daily. But I also am not the kind of guy who is going to lay out good money for a game, and just accept the fact that about 1/4 of the tables are not even as good as the game I paid $60 for 4 years ago. I try to compliment FS on their good work (which is truly, overwhelmingly positive IMO) but I also believe that factual, relevant constructive criticism is more important to the overall product quality than blowing pink smoke up someone's rear-end. The really tough part here, is that they aren't "creating" something new. What they are replicating is something that actually exists in real life. When you have played on most of these tables IRL, and then the re-creations don't measure up, there is a very real bar that is set, and often hard to attain. I get it, it's difficult. But many of the small things that we've been asking about are not hard, or particularly time-consuming, and are just flat out ignored. And that's not too cool.

While I (obviously) disagree with most of your opinions, thank you for presenting them in a way conducive to intelligent discussion. And yes, I do agree that a chorus of angels here singing FarSight's praise would be both excruciatingly boring to read and completely useless in terms of improving the game, so we'll always have room for an advocatus diaboli. The reason I tend to defend FarSight more than most people is that I have worked with code and software development in both a professional and an amateur capacity for 18 years, so I have some idea of why some things are the way they are, even if we'd clearly prefer them to be otherwise.

^ What a breath of fresh air to read a post like this. And its all totally correct.

You, on the other hand...do you intend to do anything on this forum other than vacuously support any post that appears to you to cast FarSight in a negative light? If you're not going to add something substantive to the conversation, there's really no need for your posts.

 

[sotie]

Very well said Sean.

I'm curious about the pink hue problem that's been discussed so much lately. I've seen that pinkness in the upcoming table screenshots which FS posts to Facebook since the beginning of this year. I'm just wondering why I'm just reading about it here now? I don't frequent the PS3 subforum (because I don't play TPA on that platform) so I'm sure it's been discussed there but why is everybody talking about it now? I'm not saying that people shouldn't be upset about it, just wondering why it took so long.

 

[Heretic]

A pink hue is one thing on most tables but a pretty in pink t800 is just wrong

 

[Pete]

i think with most of their die hard community now on season passes it doesn't make sense to say they need to release a pack every month to keep the doors open. maybe they are rushing to get to season 3 and secure that pile of loot? i do think allot of us would start twitching funny and sweating for a fix if the packs were to slow down, ha. the rate of tables seems so impressively fast you really got to hand it to them for being able to keep up with it even with the glitches. i love the monthly releases, it reminds me of being a kid and waiting for the next spider-man comic to come out and every time a new one comes out you just need the next one soon after. however fixing the bugs is important and needs to be taken care of and even though im obsessed with getting the new packs asap a slow down to fix things and make the game better would not make me unhappy. i think also a game like the mentioned Oblivion has way more complexity and allot of those bugs it has would take so much effort to single out and fix VS the pinball arcade. even the newer title Skyrim has serious issues and flaws that would take years of going through code for a single person to figure out. lets face it the entire elder scrolls library is kind of clunky. good thing pba isnt that massive.

the "most glitchy game ive ever played in recent years" award would definitely goto dead island... man that one had some serious game save issues that would really mess you all up.

 

[netizen]

a pretty in pink t800 is just wrong

Did you do an image search first?

 

[DarkAkatosh]

And make no mistake - while TPA might be very passionate for the people who work at Farsight - they are still running a business. And it takes money to do so. And it can run out & have your business go under pretty damned quick.

I live in RI. You want an example of above??? Go look up 38 Studios...

That wasn't a matter of misuse, it was a matter of stupidity. When you need to sell 3 million copies of your first game just to break even, that tells you something.

 

[brakel]

i think with most of their die hard community now on season passes it doesn't make sense to say they need to release a pack every month to keep the doors open. maybe they are rushing to get to season 3 and secure that pile of loot? i do think allot of us would start twitching funny and sweating for a fix if the packs were to slow down, ha. the rate of tables seems so impressively fast you really got to hand it to them for being able to keep up with it even with the glitches. i love the monthly releases, it reminds me of being a kid and waiting for the next spider-man comic to come out and every time a new one comes out you just need the next one soon after. however fixing the bugs is important and needs to be taken care of and even though im obsessed with getting the new packs asap a slow down to fix things and make the game better would not make me unhappy. i think also a game like the mentioned Oblivion has way more complexity and allot of those bugs it has would take so much effort to single out and fix VS the pinball arcade. even the newer title Skyrim has serious issues and flaws that would take years of going through code for a single person to figure out. lets face it the entire elder scrolls library is kind of clunky. good thing pba isnt that massive.

the "most glitchy game ive ever played in recent years" award would definitely goto dead island... man that one had some serious game save issues that would really mess you all up.

Perhaps most of their die hard fans are on the season pass, although I don't know that that is even true, a vast majority of their sales are to the non-die hard lot who pick and choose which packs they will buy. I've purchased every pack for the PS3 but I'm not a season pack subscriber.

 

[Tron]

Well, as it turns out, I don't give a crap about PS3 updates and fixes, having never owned one, so we're even. And taking a totally-unscientific approach and using the TZ backer tournament participation to estimate the relative size of the userbases, it turns out iOS has about 10 times the number of active players as PS3. Therefore, it makes business sense for FarSight to devote more attention to iOS. Whether they actually do or not is not something I have information about.

If you don't play this primarily on PS3 your not going to get the frustration a PS3 user gets with this game.

Be it pink lighting, washed out visuals, downright bad coding (Black Knight-Genie), to the lack of response to issues and turnaround of updates. Compare this version to ios or even android and its startling how uniformly it looks and runs with finesse on these devices. This is what your PS3 user wants with little wonder to the up in arms attitude of some complainants.

Lastly, the comment highlighted to your attention was a little sour to say the least for a person in your position as a MOD on forums touting a multi-platform game. Lets hope you don't drop that ipad down the pan.

 

[DaPinballWizard]

"i think with most of their die hard community now on season passes it doesn't make sense to say they need to release a pack every month to keep the doors open."

Yeah, that would go over real well. I paid for my pack this month already. WHERE IS IT?!!! I can see it already.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Lastly, the comment highlighted to your attention was a little sour to say the least for a person in your position as a MOD on forums touting a multi-platform game. Lets hope you don't drop that ipad down the pan.

That bolded comment was in retort to MonkeyGrass's comment "I don't give a crap about iOS updates and fixes", and that winking emoticon at the end was intended to convey that I was not being entirely serious.

Later on in that post, I actually thank him later for presenting his views in a way conducive to intelligent argument, so it would have been really odd for me to launch a barb at him first.