I Hate Drop Catching

[Zaphod77]

T2 (and fish tales as well) suffer from unusual acceleration coming off the ramps, and that's whats messing up the flow.

 

[PoSTedUP]

T2 (and fish tales as well) suffer from unusual acceleration coming off the ramps, and that's whats messing up the flow.

yup! ill even argue the fact that is literally impossible to hit the ramp that's second from the left. trapping Or flow, it just seems that there is absolutely zero trajectory developed into the right flipper to hit that ramp. in the vita version at least...

and fish tales, yes definitely. i just got it for vita, its a very hard table imo. i struggled to get control of the ball and get past 100k for a few days. still very shakey playing flow, im experimenting with nudging right b4 i hit the ball etc. ive managed to get above 500k, im still practicing. its really fun imo.

 

[Mark Miwurdz]

These world class 'flow' players ? Got any names and (ideally) videos?

 

[PoSTedUP]

These world class 'flow' players ? Got any names and (ideally) videos?

watch some of andrei massenkoff's PAPA videos, he barely stops the ball, and he was the best in the wold
at one point ^_^.

edit: sori cant post videos from my vita. but they are there on youtube.

 

[Mark Miwurdz]

watch some of andrei massenkoff's PAPA videos, he barely stops the ball, and he was the best in the wold
at one point ^_^.

edit: sori cant post videos from my vita. but they are there on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsZNNdNqlkM

Second result on youtube. He uses trapping often and is skilled at it. Not that good an example.

 

[Extork]

Postedup- I share your love of flow. Especially centaur. One of my favs. I've been playing it just about every breaktime I get. I felt the same way about how catching seems boring/easy. Don't get me wrong, but catching and lining up your shot can be just as fun, granted.. I like to judge my shot when it's coming back down from the inlane. That's great n all but I've come to learn that cradling is necessary and has nothing to do with the challenge of jottings balls at high speed (pun intended). You seem to be crushing it with flow. Nice centaur high score, but let me at this...

If we are going with the music comparison... (Any preference works for that individual person) I listen to exclusively instrumentals. Don't need voices as I do not feel the need to 'sing along'. BUT even though that works for me, I am not going to discount the talent of such artists like, Elvis, Johnny cash, the list could go on. Hell, I've even given country a chance lately. The point I'm making is to keep an open mind. As far as the challenge, well it was quite a challenge to get me to even listen to country since I only listen to breakbeat, like 'the prodigy'. They are all just avenues to get to the same goal (wizard goal). Keep in mind also that there is some gray area between flow/catch, meaning.. You can still have flow while slightly catching

 

[Buzz1126]

Like most, the drop-catch is a tool I use. I don't consider it a style of play. You say you don't want an underhand pitch, you want the nastiest, hardest slider/curve out there, but let me ask you this: do you drive on the interstate like you do in a residential neighborhood? Do you come screeching out of your driveway, tires smoking, then hit the brakes only to accelerate to a stop sign/red light, then hit the brakes again? In pinball, like driving, I'm aware of my surroundings. I'm watching the lanes (in both). I'm looking for instances of scoring. I'm looking at angles. Do I drop that target, and if so, where will the ball go next? Where is my best return for my shot? Can you honestly say that not catching the ball, not using a tool, makes for a better experience? I can't. In my second favorite experience, not using technique makes for a short game.
Just like pinball.

 

[PoSTedUP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsZNNdNqlkM

Second result on youtube. He uses trapping often and is skilled at it. Not that good an example.

there are a lot of videos where he traps, i didnt say never does. i actually havent seen PAPA14, check out him in 12 and in the past, there are plenty of videos where he doesnt trap. hes a good flow player.

 

[PoSTedUP]

Postedup- I share your love of flow. Especially centaur. One of my favs. I've been playing it just about every breaktime I get. I felt the same way about how catching seems boring/easy. Don't get me wrong, but catching and lining up your shot can be just as fun, granted.. I like to judge my shot when it's coming back down from the inlane. That's great n all but I've come to learn that cradling is necessary and has nothing to do with t

he challenge of jottings balls at high speed (pun intended). You seem to be crushing it with flow. Nice centaur high score, but let me at this...

If we are going with the music comparison... (Any preference works for that individual person) I listen to exclusively instrumentals. Don't need voices as I do not feel the need to 'sing along'. BUT even though that works for me, I am not going to discount the talent of such artists like, Elvis, Johnny cash, the list could go on. Hell, I've even given country a chance lately. The point I'm making is to keep an open mind. As far as the challenge, well it was quite a challenge to get me to even listen to country since I only listen to breakbeat, like 'the prodigy'. They are all just avenues to get to the same goal (wizard goal). Keep in mind also that there is some gray area between flow/catch, meaning.. You can still have flow while slightly catching

thanks. and i didnt discredit anyone who traps... ive said that. catching can be fun, yes, that is an opinion and i respect everyones. i havent found the fun in it (yet?). catching can be hard, hell, you have to have patients and consistentcy to get great scores while trapping. what is hard for one may be easy for another, and vice versa. i dont have patients when it comes to racking up a good score. either it clicks wih me and i can learn it well with flow, or it doesnt so i just forget about it and just play around. if i dont see any progress afte a while, that table isnt for me or isnt good for flow or maybe ill get mad and blame it on the "stupid game" for my own set-backs and stubbornness of loving flow.

 

[PoSTedUP]

Like most, the drop-catch is a tool I use. I don't consider it a style of play. You say you don't want an underhand pitch, you want the nastiest, hardest slider/curve out there, but let me ask you this: do you drive on the interstate like you do in a residential neighborhood? Do you come screeching out of your driveway, tires smoking, then hit the brakes only to accelerate to a stop sign/red light, then hit the brakes again? In pinball, like driving, I'm aware of my surroundings. I'm watching the lanes (in both). I'm looking for instances of scoring. I'm looking at angles. Do I drop that target, and if so, where will the ball go next? Where is my best return for my shot? Can you honestly say that not catching the ball, not using a tool, makes for a better experience? I can't. In my second favorite experience, not using technique makes for a short game.
Just like pinball.

im a safe driver, driving is dangerous and serious. but i like to learn to be aware of my surroundings in pinball as im playing flow. imo it improves your cognitive funtion to have to think fast. you miss shots way more often playing flow, but you get better each time. i can think of a lot of ways not using a tool makes for a better experience (imo): id rather fish for bigger fish wih a smaller fishing rod on a kyack, opposed to fishing for smaller fish with a bigger rod off of a big boat... isnt it not way more exciting the first way? maybe not in your opinion, but to each their own. i perfer kyack fishing. heh.

 

[Buzz1126]

PoSTedUP, you've created a lot of dialogue, and that's one purpose of the forum. As you say, to each his own, but using my own experience, I play better, score more points and win more games when I force the machine to play MY game. Drop catch, tap pass, they are arsenals in my quest. In your reference to fishing, using a small rod or big, you're still using a tool. Try catching fish with your hands...

 

[Eaton Beaver]

I am a bigger fan of Lawlor drop catch style tables than the Steve Ritchie flow tables. I am looking forward to the new Lawlor table from Jersey Jack and really appreciate games like that. I enjoyed playing High Speed for a little bit today and got a score on my leader board of 5 million but I would never consider buying one of his real pinball tables for home use. I am not a big fan of either Black Knight table on The Pinball Arcade but I guess some really enjoy them. I do think Terminator 2 is a great game though! I played Whirlwind this morning and beat my previous high score mainly due to drop catching and aiming. I never even knew that game had a "POWER" in it...

 

[Shaneus]

I'm a flow player, but I have to train myself to (drop)catch and hold the ball. I tend to do it more often during multiball where you can hold one or two balls while playing just with the other flipper. I realised something while playing in a tourney today, and that's if I try and slow down the game to be more careful with the shots I take (on a game like Mustang, which is nowhere near as open as something like Metallica) then I just fail. But if I play a bit looser and on the fly, I may not hit the targets I need to right away, but I'm far less likely to drain/miss *all* shots.

As for flow players, I really haven't seen any better than Andrei Massenkoff. There was a video of him playing Batman in a comp posted earlier, but IMO the best example of how being a flow player is advantageous is this video from PAPA14 with F-14 Tomcat. It's been a while since I've seen him win a big (streamed over PAPA.tv) comp so it's definitely advantageous to play competently in both styles but both EMs and flow-style SS games obviously benefit a flow player more.
Side note: In Pinburgh this year (only a few weeks ago) Andrei basically ran an extended marathon, avoiding being last across maybe 12 machines (maybe more?) to make it into the final 4. He's incredibly talented and honestly, my favourite player to watch. It's just a shame that so (relatively) few newer tables have flow. Without Ritchie knocking out stuff for Stern, we wouldn't have any at all.

I need to practice a slower game style more often (I'm eyeballing an RBION for this very reason, and to get a better feel for Stern tables/flippers) and think that it's definitely necessary, but if you can make 100% flow work for you, then more power to you (and I'm definitely a little jealous ).

PS. For what it's worth, I value the design in flow tables a lot more, too. Catch-and-flip machines often feel a lot more random in their design than flow tables, and a good flow table just feels right. Cases in point: High Speed, Star Trek, AC/DC and especially No Fear. My god, that game is the Michaelangelo of flow games.

 

[vikingerik]

PS. For what it's worth, I value the design in flow tables a lot more, too. Catch-and-flip machines often feel a lot more random in their design than flow tables, and a good flow table just feels right. Cases in point: High Speed, Star Trek, AC/DC and especially No Fear. My god, that game is the Michaelangelo of flow games.

+1 to this, very well stated. Man I miss No Fear, haven't see one on location to play in at least 12 years, and all the big places like the Vegas PHOF and Silverball Museum and Modern Pinball NYC don't have it.

Stern Star Trek is a bit more catchy than it seems at first. You'll do better making aimed shots at the center drop target in particular.

But then you have machines that strike a middle ground, and probably not coincidentally sit on top in that rankings thread. AFM, MM, MB, and TOM all do this. All mix all three ways of ball control: some nice flowy shots from the ramps, some flipper-aimed kickouts, and one big target that leaves the ball bouncing around in play uncontrolled. All of these machines don't force you into a playing style but let you do whatever you like best, and that's probably why they're so broadly loved.

 

[Zombie Aladdin]

Something I feel is worth pointing out: I am decidedly a nonconformist. If I feel there is some sort of impenetrable monolithic barrier that everyone in some certain field tends to like that I get into, I tend to dislike it and see if there are alternate ways of competing. PostedUp, you are a Timmy-Johnny player. I am a pure Johnny player, though admittedly it'd be very hard to compete as a Johnny in pinball. Cradling the ball is decidedly a Spike technique, and I'd bet your dislike of cradling is because you have a nonconformist streak in you. (For the record, I cradle the ball, but I am apprehensive about it as it frequently rolls right off the flipper and into the drain.)

For those of you who are not familiar with it, Timmy, Johnny, and Spike are player categories developed by Mark Rosewater, lead designer of the card game Magic: The Gathering. A Timmy plays for the spectacle, a Johnny plays to express him- or herself, and a Spike plays to win pure and simple. In the case of Magic, Timmies love high-power, high-cost cards and build simple decks streamlined to pay for such costs; Johnnies love cards that do strange and unexpected things in combination with each other, dislike Spikes, and build unconventional, hard-to-use decks even at the expense of losing more often; and Spikes are competitive tournament players who will find the best decks and strategies possible and perfect them and hate losing (and subsequently hate losing to a Johnny the most). These categories were found to be so useful in understanding people who play a game, especially a game with large amounts of player customization or strategies, that it has since been applied to many other games.

Also, Andrei Masenkoff may not trap the ball as much as his peers, but he does know how to do it and do it well--he just doesn't like to do it. He is an interesting case of a high-achieving Johnny. (Johnnies rarely do well in tournaments unless the competition is in constant flux, such as yo-yoing.)

thanks for that, very helpful. tho i havent played adams family in ages. i cant find one around me and have a hard time
finding A pinball table. but i agree with you guys, its good to know and get good at both. plus ive noticed that the trajectory for a lot of pinball tables are off when playing flow. the game isnt perfect. TZ seemed "ok", but its a ways away from accurate, imo, playing flow. still doable i think, tho.

According to the New York City Pinball Map, there are three Addams Family machines covered in that region: Modern Pinball NYC (362 3rd Avenue) and has 31 other machines; Sunshine Laundromat (860 Manhattan Avenue in Brooklyn) and has 14 other machines; and Upright Brew House at 547 Hudson Avenue. Between these locations, you can also find 14 machines featured in The Pinball Arcade.

You have a good variety of machines in NYC. Here in Los Angeles, there are just many, many copies of a few machines.

 

[Shaneus]

+1 to this, very well stated. Man I miss No Fear, haven't see one on location to play in at least 12 years, and all the big places like the Vegas PHOF and Silverball Museum and Modern Pinball NYC don't have it.

Stern Star Trek is a bit more catchy than it seems at first. You'll do better making aimed shots at the center drop target in particular.

But then you have machines that strike a middle ground, and probably not coincidentally sit on top in that rankings thread. AFM, MM, MB, and TOM all do this. All mix all three ways of ball control: some nice flowy shots from the ramps, some flipper-aimed kickouts, and one big target that leaves the ball bouncing around in play uncontrolled. All of these machines don't force you into a playing style but let you do whatever you like best, and that's probably why they're so broadly loved.

I like the way you think. I also love Rollergames, and when I recently played No Fear I came up with this similie: No Fear is to the 90s as what Rollergames is to the 80s. Both extremely camp (in their own way) and stereotypical of ultra-mainstream teenage media (if that makes sense).

Do yourself a favour and try to track down a well-playing NF again. It's so goddamn fast, I just love it. Use that pinfinder app thingy if you have to. Then just nail that upper flipper shot like it ain't no thing Oh, and if you're in the position to ever buy a game, NF tends to go for REALLY cheap. Even in Australia, if you're lucky you can get one for a little over $2000 (and AU prices are usually around $1k more than US). I was close to getting one, but when I realised that with HS I'd occasionally crave a slower, less flowy game, I wouldn't be able to have it. Which is kinda why I'm on the hunt for an RBION