July Tournament

[DA5ID]

I think the 20 minute limit is necessary for the TPA formats with micro-nudging that allows for games to go infinite.
There will always be those that can spam a shot for 20 minutes - I don't think that's very fun but hats off to those that can do it because it is not easy!
My personal strategy is to play a normal game for the full 20 minutes with good strategy and try to get to the wizard mode for a point bump at the end and of course drain extra balls like a mad man during the last minute for the bonus points.

I would like extra balls turned off and instead given points for earning them - this is very common (read always) in both real world tournaments and league play.

 

[invitro]

Except the few well-known TPA wizards roaming here (those who can put a crazy highscore almost when they want -well... I suppose- , 1 or 2 tries at most), tourney final results for a common player mostly depend on how much time you have spent on it.

Does your wink mean you're not serious? Anyway, this kind of claim is what I'm talking about. You don't know if it's true or false, and neither does anyone else, unless they've done research and can prove it. I think it's BS. Unless your definition of "common player" is so narrow that it includes only players with exactly the same amount of skill, in which case of course their results would strongly depend on number of games played, although the effect could still be less than the effect of luck. But if the definition is that narrow, who cares, anyway?

At least limited attempts (3 or 5 per table?) would change the results in some way. You have a predefined number of attempts per table and that's all, "pause & restart" consumes an attempt. That's what I call a tournament, not a grind fest depending on how many times you restart, or how many games you play until you get a decent score (especially on tough tables).

That's what you call a tournament, it's not what other people call a tournament.

I don't judge anyone, as I used that myself too in the past, but since numerous tourneys, I stopped, because it had no sense and was just boring as hell, because I didn't feel like I was actually playing a pinball tournament.

But you are judging. You're judging people who like grinding and playing tables many times in a tournament.

Well, in a pinball tournament, when your turn comes, and you mess up your first ball, you don't say: "Hey, I failed my first ball, I restart the game".

Or when after your 3 attempts (or less, depending of the format), you still have a weak score, you don't say: "Hey, I will play until I get the top score. By the way, can I restart the game if I mess up my first ball?" ^^

This is not true. I've played in several world championships -- PAPA and Pinburgh, although it was many years ago. In those tourneys, players could attempt to qualify as many times as they wanted. Some people had lots of attempts and some had only a few. The year I was the #1 qualifier in B, I got that on my first or second attempt, IIRC, but it took me several attempts in other years. (I would dearly love to have the data for all of those tournaments, but I've been able to find only a few of them online.)

Especially in A division near the end of qualifying, it was common for players to do exactly what you describe: restart their tournament entry if they got off to a bad start.

I don't think anyone else here has much experience in big-time real pinball tournaments, but I'd love to hear from them.

 

[invitro]

I should say that of course I know that the post-qualifying rounds in big tourneys are single-game only. But the vast bulk of time in tournaments is for qualifying, and depending on the division and number of players, qualifying is usually the hard part of the tournament (though I personally had a harder time in the playoffs -- nerves).

I think the people who purchased tons of qualifying entries, or who restarted an entry after only a ball or two on one table, were somewhat looked down upon by most players. I remember one fellow, who became a WMS or Sega/Stern employee for a few machines, bought more than double the number of entries of the next most-entered player... and still couldn't qualify (I think this was in B, but it might've been in A).

The smaller "mini-tournaments" at PAPA and Pinburgh were entirely play as many times as you want to pay for.

All this are my tournament memories and things might have changed. And there is a huge variety of other tourney formats where number of attempts is limited, or held to one entry, especially in league and very small tourneys. I'm interested in trying out any and all formats in TPA tourneys. I don't mean to imply that I think the current format is the best -- I think that is a personal preference, unless/until research is done to support a particular claim -- but I do like it just fine.

(And I do understand the frustrations of people who really hate grinding.)

 

[invitro]

I would like extra balls turned off and instead given points for earning them - this is very common (read always) in both real world tournaments and league play.

Well, the main reason for doing this is to keep games from lasting hours and hours, as the finals of real-pinball tourneys are on a pretty strict time schedule. Since we are limited to 20 minutes in TPA, I don't think much would be gained. However, allowing EB's does have the effect of making the skill of keeping the ball in play a not very important skill for many tables, which I think is a negative. As with other suggestions, I'd like to be able to try out a no-EB version of the regular TPA tournaments. I'm just unsure if that format would necessarily be better, or if it would be better for all tiers (it seems reasonable that it would be more likely to be better in Gold).

I'm generally an advocate for allowing limited EB's in competitive pinball, as so much of the strategy on many tables is focused around getting EB's, and that would just disappear if they were completely disallowed. And yes I know that most of that strategy is gone in the current TPA tourney format for many/most tables.

(PS: I don't know why I'm rambling so much on these issues right now. I like talking about pinball tournaments I guess. I won't be surprised if I feel embarrassed and delete all these posts later... )

 

[DA5ID]

I have participated in over 30 IFPA qualified tournaments and extra balls are always off. If the machine is an older EM that can't turn off extra balls you had to plunge it. I was in the Lyons (CO) Spring Classic (one of the official IFPA events) and they turned off extra balls AND ball save - that was a wake up call...

Zach Sharpe (currently ranked #1 in the world) participated in that tournament - It was amazing watching him play Scared Stiff (unfortunately against my buddy) and achieve the highest score I didn't think was even possible on that table - and did it with only 3 balls and no ball save.

 

[vikingerik]

At least limited attempts (3 or 5 per table?) would change the results in some way. You have a predefined number of attempts per table and that's all, "pause & restart" consumes an attempt. That's what I call a tournament, not a grind fest depending on how many times you restart, or how many games you play until you get a decent score (especially on tough tables).

The problem with this for TPA is the random elements in the tables. You can't do limited attempts for a tournament until we have proper tournament mode settings. Otherwise you're dependent on the best random results coming up for you (like Cactus Canyon's bonus bounty or TZ's Camera Collect Bonus) and if it doesn't happen in your limited attempts you're screwed compared to players who did get it.

Unlimited attempts mitigate the randomness by letting you try until it goes your way. It's more fair in-game. It may be less fair out-of-game in demanding more real-life time, but hey every sport favors those who practice more.

 

[Tann]

Does your wink mean you're not serious? Anyway, this kind of claim is what I'm talking about. You don't know if it's true or false, and neither does anyone else, unless they've done research and can prove it. I think it's BS. Unless your definition of "common player" is so narrow that it includes only players with exactly the same amount of skill, in which case of course their results would strongly depend on number of games played, although the effect could still be less than the effect of luck. But if the definition is that narrow, who cares, anyway?

Well, simply look at the tourney leaderboards. On each platform and tier, it's almost always the same players at the top, with crazy highscores (850M on HD3!). Two possible explanations:

- They are wizards, they can pull off a great 20mn game when they desire (I think it's the case, because they have also great highscores in all-time TPA leaderboards)
- They are grinders: "pause & restart" ad nauseam, until the perfect game happens.

Luck is not involved, because these scores can't be achieved with only luck.

Other players are what I call "common player" (me ^^). They just launch a game, play, and whatever is the final score, it's OK. 2 or 3 attempts per table, no "pause & restart", and alea jacta est. Sure, it could be a lot better if I was a wizard (which I'm not) or if I grinded (that I can't bear anymore to do).

That's what you call a tournament, it's not what other people call a tournament. But you are judging. You're judging people who like grinding and playing tables many times in a tournament.

That's my opinion, and you're free to deny that the amount time spent on a tourney ("pause & restart" above all) has an impact on the final results.

Especially in A division near the end of qualifying, it was common for players to do exactly what you describe: restart their tournament entry if they got off to a bad start.

I should say that of course I know that the post-qualifying rounds in big tourneys are single-game only.

I think the people who purchased tons of qualifying entries, or who restarted an entry after only a ball or two on one table, were somewhat looked down upon by most players.

The smaller "mini-tournaments" at PAPA and Pinburgh were entirely play as many times as you want to pay for.

How much is the entrance fee?

That's the point: you have unlimited attempts, but you have to pay for each attempt. So basically, it's not unlimited attempts (unless the guy is a Rockfeller)... And after a guy payed his entrance, if he has a very crappy first ball, I doubt he quits and says "hey, take my money again, I restart my game, because I had a crappy first ball".

(PS: I don't know why I'm rambling so much on these issues right now. I like talking about pinball tournaments I guess. I won't be surprised if I feel embarrassed and delete all these posts later... )

Why? we debate, that's all. You have nothing against unlimited attempts and grinding in TPA tourneys, but IMO, I think it kills the fun factor and the pinball tournament experience, that's all. So we're not agree, and we debate.

The problem with this for TPA is the random elements in the tables. You can't do limited attempts for a tournament until we have proper tournament mode settings. Otherwise you're dependent on the best random results coming up for you (like Cactus Canyon's bonus bounty or TZ's Camera Collect Bonus) and if it doesn't happen in your limited attempts you're screwed compared to players who did get it.

Unlimited attempts mitigate the randomness by letting you try until it goes your way. It's more fair in-game. It may be less fair out-of-game in demanding more real-life time, but hey every sport favors those who practice more.

Fair enough. But in every sport, luck is involved sometimes.


To conclude, let's do an analogy:

In the last European Soccer Championship, France lost in final against Portugal. We have been VERY unlucky, and the final result is some kind of a steal (a "hold-up" in sport term) .

It was a tournament, so french players can't "pause & restart" or ask to replay the game.

 

[DA5ID]

Good discussion all around. Def no redo's or restarts in tournaments. Its about being in the now and how will you perform at that moment and if the pinball goddess (luck) shines favor upon you. When you go up against a better player (ranked much higher than you) there is a higher probability that they are going to beat you because they have better technique or they have a deeper understanding of the machine and have a "winning" strategy. However you always have a chance to win by having that one spectacular ball (and that can happen on ball 1, 2, or 3) -thats what makes pinball fun.

Tournaments have set unwavering rules - the tournament director explains the rules at the start and acts as referee/judge/jury/executioner when there is a dispute or machine malfunction. Otherwise you are DQ'd (disqualified not dairy queened).

for example
Tilting through - when a player tilts a machine on an older machine and the bob is still moving and tilts the next players ball - instant DQ (game not tournament)

 

[steven120566]

"Other players are what I call "common player" (me ^^). They just launch a game, play, and whatever is the final score, it's OK. 2 or 3 attempts per table, no "pause & restart", and alea jacta est. Sure, it could be a lot better if I was a wizard (which I'm not)"

Amen, this is me as well. Still love the tourneys just the way they are, and at the same time like see what the best players can do. Most of my focus is on the people who are landing near above and near below me. The folks I keep changing places with for the final two days! What could be better than that?