More deep rulesets, please!

[Captain B. Zarre]

One reason I love playing pinball is discovering the many secrets the game has, like TAF dirty pool, and Big Six in MB. It's one of the reasons I want more modern Sterns to be in TPA, like LOTR and TSPP. It feels awesome getting an 84x Jackpot or reaching the wizard mode in TSPP. I would love if, after TAF, a kickstarted pin with a deep ruleset would be released. It seems to hold our attention for longer!

 

[JPelter]

I'm not hating on the stuff you like, but I know a lot of people including myself prefer EM machines with simple rulesets. People prefer different things out of their pinball experience so their current system of releasing older simpler games and newer more complex ones relatively evenly is working very well.

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

I do understand that, I sometimes like playing those tables as well...

 

[DarkAkatosh]

I want the modern Sterns in TPA as well but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[Sumez]

I'm not hating on the stuff you like, but I know a lot of people including myself prefer EM machines with simple rulesets. People prefer different things out of their pinball experience so their current system of releasing older simpler games and newer more complex ones relatively evenly is working very well.

But it's not really even. There haven't been any tables with really deep rule sets since... ST:TNG really. Unless CC or TCP have interesting details I don't know about (never really delved into those tables, and haven't played them on TPA)

 

[Carl Spiby]

I don't necessarily think deep rulesets are what we need, I like the opportunity to stack modes and the risk/reward elements on various tables.

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

Carl, that's what I meant... Sorry for not making it clear before.

 

[Sumez]

I don't necessarily think deep rulesets are what we need, I like the opportunity to stack modes and the risk/reward elements on various tables.

Well, those are typically the basic elements of a deep ruleset. Mode stacking is really rare on tables older than the late 90's, and it's that kind of rules that work best for a home setting, like the one we play TPA in.

 

[JPelter]

Well, those are typically the basic elements of a deep ruleset. Mode stacking is really rare on tables older than the late 90's, and it's that kind of rules that work best for a home setting, like the one we play TPA in.

I know that this is sidetracking the topic somewhat, but where did that originate? The first one on TPA and that I can remember in general is funhouse with the two frenzies and multiball. Were there earlier games where you could stack different things together for significant benefit?

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I know that this is sidetracking the topic somewhat, but where did that originate? The first one on TPA and that I can remember in general is funhouse with the two frenzies and multiball. Were there earlier games where you could stack different things together for significant benefit?

Whirlwind (which is very slightly older than FunHouse) would let you stack Quick Multiball and the regulation multiball together.

In general, the opportunities for stacking is very limited in the pre-DMD era because most pre-DMD games don't have modes as we understand the term today, and most of them only had one multiball if they had any. As best I can tell, the concept of stacking may well have originated with Pat Lawlor in a rudimentary form on Whirlwind and FunHouse, became more advanced in Addams Family, and became fully established by the time of Twilight Zone.

 

[gooche77]

It always comes back to Twilight Zone with you, doesn't it Sean?

 

[JPelter]

Whirlwind (which is very slightly older than FunHouse) would let you stack Quick Multiball and the regulation multiball together.

In general, the opportunities for stacking is very limited in the pre-DMD era because most pre-DMD games don't have modes as we understand the term today, and most of them only had one multiball if they had any. As best I can tell, the concept of stacking may well have originated with Pat Lawlor in a rudimentary form on Whirlwind and FunHouse, became more advanced in Addams Family, and became fully established by the time of Twilight Zone.

Cool beans. Thanks for the history lesson. It's always nice to read about where these things originated.

 

[Mayuh]

Whirlwind (which is very slightly older than FunHouse) would let you stack Quick Multiball and the regulation multiball together.

Funhouse can do that too. But only if quick multiball is the last award not yet claimed from the mirror right before multiball start. Rudy gives you everything else first...

Thinking of it... I can't believe this was another Pat Lawlor first

 

[Sumez]

Well, one thing is modes that allow stacking either because it makes sense intuitively, or simply because no one wrote any code that let one exclude the other - another is entire rule sets and scoring systems designed around tactical stacking, such as Monster Bash and RBION. I'd say it was a slow progression since ~Funhouse yeah

 

[Arjan]

I'm not hating on the stuff you like, but I know a lot of people including myself prefer EM machines with simple rulesets. People prefer different things out of their pinball experience so their current system of releasing older simpler games and newer more complex ones relatively evenly is working very well.

I wonder why?? Why is it that you and so many others prefer simple rulesheets?? Games with more rulesheets can be played as easy but are more fun for a lot of other people, that there are a lot of rules does not mean that you must follow these.
I prefer at least some nice features in a pinball machine, does not specifically need to be a modern stern, but I really do not like the old EM machines that TPA brings out the last months, I get bored before the first game is over.
On top of that I play on my tablet and the older games need to be shaken and bumped otherwise the game is over fast, and this doesn't work very well with my tablet, nudge through shaking doesn't work at all in my opinion, and nudge through touchscreen sucks because you need to move your hands all the way up to touch the screen in the topsection, this makes me loose the ball even faster then not nudging....

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

Now if you excuse me, I'm gonna get some popcorn and watch this argument take place. Nom.

 

[Espy]

Times like these I think we need to be reminded of the wise word of Rudy:

"Hey! It's only pinball!"

 

[Carl Spiby]

My friend has machines from a Mr and Mrs Pacman up to a Spider-Man, sometimes its nice to just have a change of pace.

 

[JPelter]

I wonder why?? Why is it that you and so many others prefer simple rulesheets?? Games with more rulesheets can be played as easy but are more fun for a lot of other people, that there are a lot of rules does not mean that you must follow these.
I prefer at least some nice features in a pinball machine, does not specifically need to be a modern stern, but I really do not like the old EM machines that TPA brings out the last months, I get bored before the first game is over.
On top of that I play on my tablet and the older games need to be shaken and bumped otherwise the game is over fast, and this doesn't work very well with my tablet, nudge through shaking doesn't work at all in my opinion, and nudge through touchscreen sucks because you need to move your hands all the way up to touch the screen in the topsection, this makes me loose the ball even faster then not nudging....

I can only speak for myself here but the main reasons I like the old games are:
a) The older tables are usually punishingly difficult even in TPA, so games don't go on for hours. As long as we can't have tournament rule leaderboards with no extra balls and harder playfield settings it's much more fun to play those. Games like ripley and twilight zone you can literally play for 8 hours+ because once you know the danger areas you know they're not important for scoring and the game becomes a test of stamina.

b) Related to the above, but old tables take me to a significantly different mindset where instead of absolute ball control you try to figure out the statistics on which shots are the most likely to drain and try to avoid them, while also needing to figure out trajectories usually a second or more in advance so you can nudge them away from drains before it's too late. You also usually need to do this all while the ball is constantly active since being able to trap up is much harder in a majority of older games.

Saying "that there are a lot of rules does not mean that you must follow these" isn't really relevant since the games work a certain way and playing outside of how they were designed isn't really something that you can do. I mean EM machines are fundamentally very different from modern games even outside of the rulesets.

I know there are exceptions on both sides. STTNG and TotAN are very difficult modern tables. Black Hole, while not being an EM table is also not a modern style one and is relatively easy.

I guess the short version is that it isn't really about the depth of the rulesets as much as the fact that I prefer the older games for the different challenge they offer, and a vast majority of the games with deep rulesets don't have the same kinds of challenges. Even in the cases where the difficulty is similar to EM the gameplay overall isn't.

 

[Sumez]

My friend has machines from a Mr and Mrs Pacman up to a Spider-Man, sometimes its nice to just have a change of pace.

As far as I understand it, the problem is exactly that the pace is going a bit stale atm...