Physics of Zen Pinball

[Matthew Weflen]

Would someone be so kind as to let me know what the differences are, if any between the gameplay engines of Pinball FX2 (X360) and Zen Pinball (PS3)? I was under the impression that they were essentially the same, but people talk all the time as if PFX2 is superior in some way.

FWIW, I prefer the PHOF/TPA engine by quite a bit, because it isn't so fast and heavy. But I agree that it feels just a tad floaty compared to the real thing.

 

[ND3G]

Would someone be so kind as to let me know what the differences are, if any between the gameplay engines of Pinball FX2 (X360) and Zen Pinball (PS3)? I was under the impression that they were essentially the same, but people talk all the time as if PFX2 is superior in some way.

FWIW, I prefer the PHOF/TPA engine by quite a bit, because it isn't so fast and heavy. But I agree that it feels just a tad floaty compared to the real thing.

If I am correct, FX was made first for the 360, then Zen Pinball for PS3, finally FX2 for the 360. In each iteration they improved the engine. I have never played on the PS3 so I can't say how big the difference is...

 

[Freelance]

If I am correct, FX was made first for the 360, then Zen Pinball for PS3, finally FX2 for the 360. In each iteration they improved the engine. I have never played on the PS3 so I can't say how big the difference is...

It's the same thing on PS3. The physics in Marvel Pinball is better than Zen Pinball and that came after Zen. Zen 3D came after both games and has better physics than both. That's my opinion anyway.

 

[CycOd3liC]

Anyone get a chance to play the Sorcerers Lair table from the Windows 8 Consumer Preview? Seems a LOT better than the other versions of it. Still a bit easy though.

 

[Matthew Weflen]

It's the same thing on PS3. The physics in Marvel Pinball is better than Zen Pinball and that came after Zen. Zen 3D came after both games and has better physics than both. That's my opinion anyway.

I can't say I noticed any difference between Marvel and Zen on PS3. So I guess by that logic, I can treat Zen and PFX2 as essentially the same.

 

[unclewilly]

Well i play a black hole every week. And Im going to have to say tpa version is way too bouncy. But regardless, the physics are better than most pinball sims. Just wish they were closer to what was done in the pro pinball games.

If they ever put out a black pyramid or Mr and Mrs pacman ill give a more definitive view on the physics as i have those 2 in my game room.

Im also a regular at the national pinball museum so Im looking forward to a funhouse release as i play that every week also

 

[George Klepacz]

Will the console versions have better physics than the current mobile versions?

 

[ND3G]

Will the console versions have better physics than the current mobile versions?

Maybe, but a few minor adjustments aside the mobile versions are pretty spot on already.

 

[shutyertrap]

I can't say I noticed any difference between Marvel and Zen on PS3. So I guess by that logic, I can treat Zen and PFX2 as essentially the same.

There's a difference for sure! In Zen, you catch the ball after a fast bounce and the thing spins like mad on the flipper. Like sparks literally fly off the thing. Marvel has a much better feel, or at least I feel like I can control the ball better.

I personally don't have a problem with Zen's physics. The thing I find funny with PBHOF (I haven't played TPA yet) is that I never played those tables in factory fresh condition. I played tons of Whirlwind back in the day, and I can't tell you how many times that mid field flipper shot up the ramp resulted in it coming right back down due to the flipper not having enough power anymore! I certainly like Farsight's physics better than Visual Pinball's. If they could just get it so the balls could jump a bit off the table, or hit the glass now and then, it'd go a long way towards more realism.

 

[Animator_pin_fan]

I was playing Whitewater last weekend and the ball was bounced all over the place. I must have hit the glass at least 5 times in one game. With that said, yes, I too think that little bit of jumping off the table and bumping the glass where appropriate would really push the realism of TPA for me. Otherwise, l don't know how you can even compare the physics of Zen and TPA. Zen is fun, but not at all realistic. I agree, the Marvel series of tables have slightly improved physics, but it still has way too much spin for my taste. Try doing a simple post pass on TPA like you would do on a real pinball table , and then try it on Zen. I feel the difference.

 

[shutyertrap]

So first off, Whitewater is one of those tables I'm dying to play in real life. I don't know what it is about that table, but I really really wanna have a go at it.

As for passing between flippers in Zen, I can't do it! With the Williams collection, I saw a what I was supposed to do, tried it, and was successful. Went and did the exact same thing in Zen and the ball didn't even come close to doing the same thing! But I wonder how much that has to do with physics as opposed to table layout. Cause let's face it, there is a flow to the real tables, even the crowded ones, that Zen just hasn't achieved. That's actually not a dig at Zen tables, just that I play them differently than PHOF. For instance, the Wolverine table is a fairly standard layout, with only the hand ninjas being fantastical on the actual playfield. Hitting that middle ramp though is a true chore (for me), cause it's threading the needle. I hit that shot more out of dumb luck than actual skill. Compare that to hitting the gangway shot in Funhouse, where you're shooting through 3 bumpers. I've figured out the timing with that shot, and can hit it with either a caught ball or rolling ball. There is an actual rhythm to it, that is achievable over and over.

So is that the physics, or the layout?

 

[Animator_pin_fan]

I believe it's a combo of both physics, and amazing layouts. The designers at Williams are legendary. And the most amazing thing about PHOF and PA is that you can actually apply real pin skills to playing the game, and it feels just right.

I might note, that it is possible to do post passes on Zen, but it just doesn't feel as controllable as in PA. The Marvel tables do have somewhat improved physics, but I still find that my flipper aim in Zen always feels off, it's almost like instead of controlling the angle of the ball by where the ball is rolling off the flipper, the ball has a tendency to shoot straight upwards with exaggerated velocity(and spin).

 

[shutyertrap]

but I still find that my flipper aim in Zen always feels off, it's almost like instead of controlling the angle of the ball by where the ball is rolling off the flipper, the ball has a tendency to shoot straight upwards with exaggerated velocity(and spin).

With as much time as I've spent on Iron Man trying to get to Ultimo (finally got there after hours of playing), I would like to think I have a handle on flipper aim. You might be on to something though, as some games I was able to nail a shot every time, and the very next game I couldn't hit that exact same shot to save my life. I can't imagine there is actually something in the game that causes this, but I do find it odd. And frustrating!

 

[goforthewall]

In anticipation of TPA's (possible) release yesterday on XBLA and then it not showing up, I decided to give Pinball FX2 another chance with their newer tables "Epic Quest" and the new Marvel four-pack. I must admit: they are getting there =)

I could not believe my ears, when I actually heard some AUDIO CUES during gameplay (yeah!), such as "shoot the ramps" or "hurry up and shoot the sword ramp"! Of course, this element still deserves to be greatly improved in comparison to real world tables... Also, I would love to hear more context sensitive music, because hearing the same "generic epic adventure music" in the background (on nearly all tables) without any variation or progression towards a climax in regards to a certain mode or mission you're playing get's really old, really fast! The illumination also seems to finally make sense in pointing you towards actual goals in the new tables, which was not the case when I played the earlier tables...

On the physics side, I'll have to say that you CAN get used to it, but it never feels right. I played TAXI on PHoF:WC afterwards and I liked it way better, even with the floatiness...

I guess I'll give Zen / Pinball FX2 a chance as an alternative pinball experience, when I'm waiting for new tables to be released on TPA =)

 

[Pinballfan69]

I have yet to play PA or PHOF so I'm not sure how different the ball handles. I've only heard of PHOF when I got Marvel/zen pinball. Then I saw that they were going to make PBA so I didn't get PHOF.

The trailers for PA look the balls are a bit 'floaty'. I hope there is a demo so I can see it with my own eyes and decide to purchase. In any case i'll probably buy it because I love pinball.

 

[PinMike8666]

The original Pinball FX physics weren't very good; they felt too fast and stiff. Pinball FX 2's engine (especially once Marvel Pinball came out) feels much, much better; I feel the ball has accurate speed and weight to resemble pinball accurately. Not as great as the Pro Pinball engine or Little Wing's latest, but good enough to be in my top 5 all-time ball physics.

 

[Jeff Strong]

It has potential, but it's way to easy to control the ball in Pinball FX 2 and their iOS games. The ball doesn't bounce enough off the flippers, so all you have to do is hold up the flipper when a ball is coming at it and you can trap it almost 100% of the time (even if it's moving very fast when it hits the flipper.....which isn't realistic at all. It doesn't work that way in real pinball. When you combine this with the flippers being too close together (I said a couple days ago on FB that you almost have to fall asleep for the ball to get past the flippers and drain down the middle), you're left with an experience that doesn't capture the challenge of real pinball.....which is unfortunate because the tables look great, sound really good, and flow pretty well.....but I often get bored before I'm even finished with one game because it's just too easy to keep the ball going. One of my biggest frustrationss with the video game industry is when developers make games too easy on purpose and water them down to appeal to the casual crowd, so I'm disappointed that Zen has taken that route because their games do have the potential to be really great.

 

[Kaoru]

Hmm, I don't know. It may well be that the flippers are closer together than it is the norm, however I still find it almost impossible to keep a ball going for longer than a mere minute. If the ball behaviour made more sense (like: bouncing off in less elusive angles and not randomly getting superfast for no apparent reason) it would be different, but as it is I never feel as if I'm having control over anything and I find myself in way too many "What the hell just happened?"- and "Why the hell did the ball just go there instead of there?"-situations. That some of the tables are hard to figure out doesn't help either. "Tesla" for example is so drowned in brown and silver that I can't differentiate the features from each other. Same goes for the totally green "Eldorado". The design is so clutted that I can't tell where ramps are leading to, let alone even how I get to them in the first place.

The tables in Marvel Pinball are a huge improvement, though. They're much "clearer" and easier on the eye and the ball is less erratic. I even collected some pretty good scores on them... while on Zen Pinball I rarely get beyond the 1.000.000 mark. (I'm looking at you, V12!) However some problems still carry over. Hitting a ramp has more to do with chance than skill, nudging doesn't have any noticeable effect on the ball. What's bothering me the most however is how useless the extra flippers are. When you hit the ball with them it seems to be rolling through them in 90% of all cases instead of bouncing off into another direction. Which means that you hardly get into certain sections on the table which are crucial to a lot of missions, thus meaning that finishing those missions is nearly impossible.

Another thing that is really frustrating (and the cause for way too many deaths): When you accidentally hit the lower edge of the slingshots, the ball bounces off and then goes right down the center drain. And it happens so quickly that you have no time to react. Grumble.

That being said I do get quite some enjoyment out of Marvel Pinball and some of its tables are really fun. However frustration always takes over in the long run and I'll most likely return to the Williams Collection after a few plays.

 

[shutyertrap]

Reading Jeff and Kaoru's comments, throwing in another of my 2 cents!

First off, I wanna have Jeff's problem with the flippers being too close. I don't believe I'm asleep while playing, but I get plenty of center drains on Iron Man, Ghost Rider, and Wolverine. I've yet to get bored while playing, because I'm always trying to complete the missions and have only done so on Iron Man. I certainly know that boredom feeling too when it comes to real pinball, as I distinctly remember it for Space Shuttle (and repeated that feeling in PBHOF) and walking away from Lethal Weapon because I couldn't die! Now then, notice I've only mentioned Marvel tables.

Kaoru hits it right on the head with the Zen tables of Tesla, V12, El Dorado, etc. Cluttered layouts with blisteringly fast balls combined with not very clear objectives makes for some low scoring. This might change somewhat when Zen 2 comes out for PS3, as those tables will get the physics of the Marvel tables. They're learning though. Sorcerer's Lair has a nice clear layout and is easy to understand the objectives. I haven't gotten Epic Quest yet, but from the sound of it, Zen is stepping it up.

One thing I keep hearing though is about how there's more chance than skill with Zen tables. Really? Cause I've gotten fairly consistent with my shots on all the Marvel Tables. There are a few shots that luck does seem to be a big part of (Wolverine's upper middle ramp specifically), but with as much time I've spent on Iron Man, it's all about getting used to the timing. To me it's like hitting the gangway shot on Funhouse. Shooting through 3 bumpers without hitting is no easy task, but if you can get the timing right, it can almost be a given.

I'm gonna be very curious to see how TPA plays on the PS3. I played the free TOTAN on my new iPad, didn't like not having buttons and didn't care for the bounciness as compared to PBHOF version. But then maybe I'm just getting too used to Zen. But you know what? I can like a racing sim just as much as an arcade racer, and that's how I'm gonna view the two different companies approach to pinball.

 

[Fungi]

I've actually stopped playing Zen tables altogether because of the difference in feel. I can't bounce from one game to the other because of the different physics. Although I do find the Zen tables to be more forgiving, I do get bored. All the while TPA games kick my butt, I never get bored with them. Granted, I'm done with Black Hole. Without the lower playfield, the game wouldn't be interesting. With the lower playfield, it's frustrating. But that's just me.