Request Proper extra ball limits in all games.

[Espy]

Quantum physics would like to have a word with you...everything there is a probability.


Not hard at all. I've even posted example code before that would implement it: http://digitalpinballfans.com/showt...sions-as-a-TZ-machine-owner?p=93715#post93715

I love the number of programmers on this forum. I feel... at home.

 

[pezpunk]

The philosophical / semantic argument about what is truly random is beside the point. All we really mean is the inability to know with 100% precision what the ball is going to do in certain kick out or exit ramp situations. On a real machine, the ball is affected by virtually infinite variables, from material conditions to vibrations to microscopic imperfections or tiny variations in voltages of kick outs or elasticity of materials or motes of dust or dirt or temperature or WHATEVER. It leads to a lot more of what from our point of view is for all intents and purposes randomness. TPA is a great sim but it cannot model the universe on an ipad.

i own a Funhouse and 90% of the time it lets you catch with the right flipper on kick out. 10% of the time things get hairy and you have to be on your toes. This is because the universe is complicated. It might seem like a bit of a cheat when FarSight manually programs variability into a kick out, but that hack more closely reflects reality from the player's perspective than having the ball do the EXACT same thing, down to the pixel, every time, as the sim is naturally inclined to do.

 

[Buzz1126]

Ah. So the real request is pro mode on games without it, in other words, which exposes the operator settings. Got it.

Now, THIS I don't have a problem with. Add the pro mode on every game. But to say the problem is too many extra balls, I don't agree with. Because no matter how easy the shot is, it still has to be made. If you're off (with the presumption the physics of the table is correct), the shot doesn't go where you want.

As to the leaderboards issue, let me ask this: if a separate board is for tourneys, and a separate board for the pro mode, and a separate board for us mortals, will this keep a$$¥ips like (the bleat of a bovine) from putting up bogus scores? And will there be leaderboards for people born in November? College grads?

One last thing. I don't think I could play a marathon game. The last tournaments with a twenty minute limit, I only played to the end a couple of times. I'm old, my eye-hand coordination sucks. To those of you with the ability to do so, I raise a glass.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Kinda sad that I don't even play Funhouse and BOP any more because of this...and I'm not that great of a player.

 

[Buzz1126]

In my opinion the defaults should ALWAYS match the defaults on the real table. I do agree that having a variation or two on the rule sets with their own leaderboards is a good idea though.

How can the defaults match if the outputs are random?

I kinda like the idea of being able to compete even BEFORE I know the individual table rules, having a mode without extra balls should help there. P

You should be able to compete. We each have to make the same shot. Here, in the real world.

That said, TPA is flawed for casual competition from the start as I need to be able to compare JUST to my friends list like you can on Zen Pinball.

This is only an opinion, but TPA is perfect for casual competition. When my son, my son-in-law and I play TPA, we are playing a recreation of a physical table. Those skills directly translate to the same table in real life. Many of the Zen tables are repackages of previous tables, and I've yet to see a Zen table at an arcade near me.

 

[Alex Atkin UK]

TPA is fine, if you are all playing on the same machine.

Nobody I know in person likes pinball so I can only compete with people online. Without friends leaderboards, I can only compete with myself.

I much prefer TPA due to the real tables, I used to really like Zen but its gotten so much brighter and more complicated that I actually find it REALLY hard to see what is going on. But the fact I can, at a glance, see how I rank against my friends means I can actually compete with them.

As for real pinball tables, I really do need to find some. I just found out there are one or two places in the city that have them, but it does suck that I would get about 2 minutes out of a real table, unless I was familiar with it, for the cost of a TPA table.

 

[Buzz1126]

TPA is fine, if you are all playing on the same machine.

Nobody I know in person likes pinball so I can only compete with people online. Without friends leaderboards, I can only compete with myself.

I much prefer TPA due to the real tables, I used to really like Zen but its gotten so much brighter and more complicated that I actually find it REALLY hard to see what is going on. But the fact I can, at a glance, see how I rank against my friends means I can actually compete with them.

As for real pinball tables, I really do need to find some. I just found out there are one or two places in the city that have them, but it does suck that I would get about 2 minutes out of a real table, unless I was familiar with it, for the cost of a TPA table.

If we weren't on opposite sides of the Atlantic, we would be playing a lot of real time pinball! For those players that enjoy Zen pinball, that's great, but for me, it takes away the very essence of pinball. I can't change the physics of a real life table like you can in Zen. I'm sure that FarSight is working on improving the leaderboards, there have been too many comments for the issue to be ignored.

 

[Punisher]

I'm pretty sure this sums up my feelings about this request.

 

[TripleT]

Just give us a Tournament Mode for all the tables, that means no extra balls with a separate leaderboard. Sometimes I just want to have a quick game not a marathon session...

Yes please.

 

[soundwave106]

Not hard at all. I've even posted example code before that would implement it:

That type of randomization is what I feel is "computerized" to me. But, this is a simulation so it's probably a bit of an esoteric point.

If these values were kept small, though, as suggested in that thread, this probably would be okay and be a good low-CPU compromise. What has bugged me in TPA is certain randomizations ("if then else" types) where kickouts are wildly different for no good reason. Usually a *very* huge change in real life pinball kickouts is caused by external factors (for instance, putting more than one ball on a kickout solenoid). This isn't quantum physics (we aren't playing "molecule" ball), pinballs can be described by classic physics.

It's probably possible to add some "variability" that kind of is the same as real life, eg model a realistic solenoid kickout with small "randomization"... that less relies on a pure random number, and more relies on factors. (Like: the time before the last kickout to simulate rapid-fire solenoids; the angle that the ball went into the kickout; a certain "friction / dirt" factor that is slightly different on a per game basis; a "ball #" factor that assigns a slightly different weight to each pinball, etc.)

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

That type of randomization is what I feel is "computerized" to me. But, this is a simulation so it's probably a bit of an esoteric point.

If these values were kept small, though, as suggested in that thread, this probably would be okay and be a good low-CPU compromise. What has bugged me in TPA is certain randomizations ("if then else" types) where kickouts are wildly different for no good reason. Usually a *very* huge change in real life pinball kickouts is caused by external factors (for instance, putting more than one ball on a kickout solenoid). This isn't quantum physics (we aren't playing "molecule" ball), pinballs can be described by classic physics.

My earlier "quantum physics" comment was me being snarky. (Although it is true - the quantum world is an extremely strange one.)

It's probably possible to add some "variability" that kind of is the same as real life, eg model a realistic solenoid kickout with small "randomization"... that less relies on a pure random number, and more relies on factors. (Like: the time before the last kickout to simulate rapid-fire solenoids; the angle that the ball went into the kickout; a certain "friction / dirt" factor that is slightly different on a per game basis; a "ball #" factor that assigns a slightly different weight to each pinball, etc.)

The last code snippet is set so that its default is to give a 10% chance that the ball speed is randomly changed between -10% and +10% of its original speed, and that the angle is randomly adjusted up to 5 degrees in either direction. It's a very subtle adjustment, probably too subtle to be honest. It's not like the right orbit in AFM that used to randomly punt balls all the way to the center drain in a completely unrealistic manner, which, as you pointed out, is obviously The Wrong Thing.

 

[Shaneus]

That being said, TPA would need finer flipper control (live catching, tap bounces, and tap passes) to enable players to properly handle randomized kickouts, so maybe that's why kickout randomization has not been implemented.

This, this, oh god so much this. I don't know how much we have to beg about finer, more accurate controlling flippers... but something honestly needs to happen with it across all platforms. It's a shame that basically all other forms of computerised pinball (VP, U3D, Pro Pinball) seem to have it, at least to some extent.

 

[hawk]

as long as special = extra ball

 

[etchie]

I like the idea that they're all based on the actual game. I think if the original table gave a lot of balls, it should remain that way.

 

[Rich Lehmann]

Yeah, with pausing the game can go on forever. Back in the day you had to pay a kid a quarter to hold the flipper you have the ball propped on while you took a bathroom break... or that is what good players did, I never had that problem. But some of the scores on the leaderboard or ridiculous. Using the original extra ball max per game should be a no brainer.

 

[Zorgwon]

It's a shame that basically all other forms of computerised pinball (VP, U3D, Pro Pinball) seem to have it, at least to some extent.

VP has very inaccurate flippers. Even basic shots aren't possible. I have TAF with VP9 and a backhand at the bookcase is impossible. On the other hand I can do wizard shot with the flipper tips.