PS3 input lag issue

[Sean DonCarlos]

if TPA is native 720p (not sure what its native res is) then on the ps3 go to settings - display and then make sure only 720p is set, not 1080p/i

On the Xbox 360, TPA's native resolution is 1080p. I don't know about the PS3 version, but I would assume given the console's capabilities that it is probably 1080p there as well.

 

[The Doctor]

On the Xbox 360, TPA's native resolution is 1080p. I don't know about the PS3 version, but I would assume given the console's capabilities that it is probably 1080p there as well.

I'll double check later but I'd assume you are right.. In this case could it be their TVs are downscaling which causes lag...

the people who this is affecting, what is the resolution of the TV you are having problems with?

 

[Crush3d_Turtle]

I'll double check later but I'd assume you are right.. In this case could it be their TVs are downscaling which causes lag...

the people who this is affecting, what is the resolution of the TV you are having problems with?

My television is 1080p with a 120hz refresh rate.

 

[The Doctor]

My television is 1080p with a 120hz refresh rate.

do you have the refresh rate up that high? that might be the problem

 

[Dumahim]

Already tested it by changing to 720p and it was still the same or any difference was too minor for me to notice if it was ever so slightly worse or better.
I don't remember if I mentioned this last time, but I hadn't played TPA in a while, and when I fired it up and tested it, the ball ran right down the flipper and down before it registed my button hit. I had intended to hit it straight up, and missed it completely. That's how bad it is. I think my next test is Pinball FX, which I'm pretty sure I have on my HD. Been years, but don't remember that being a problem before either.

 

[Crush3d_Turtle]

do you have the refresh rate up that high? that might be the problem

I have been playing around with the settings on my tv trying to get this to work but to no avail. The information for the HDMI port connected to the PS3 show it as being 1080p and 60Hz as I expected. Nothing that I do is able to get the game to play as smooth as it does on the Xbox 360. And I just rage quit from a game on ToM; had the ball trapped on the right flipper and was going for a trunk shot early in the game, made what I felt was an excellent shot yet the ball just gets tipped by the end of the flipper before draining. Back to only the Vita for me I guess.

 

[Tabe]

If it were true that there is an innate lag in PS3 in general, then all of the games would exhibit the same lag. The issue is specific to Pinball Arcade.

Thank you. This is not a PS3 issue. It's not a TV issue. It's not an HDMI cable issue. It's a Pinball Arcade software issue. Period. The idea that this is somehow a problem specific to TV display modes or the PS3 in the general is just laughable, given the huge number of other games requiring incredibly specific timing don't have any issues on the PS3.

Tabe

 

[RetroDude]

do you have the refresh rate up that high? that might be the problem

Considering that most video data sources are NOT at 120hz, the television is basically making up "difference" frames between existing frames of data.
Do either the X-Box or PS3 have the ability to output anything other than 60hz video signals?
Not the resolution.. the frame refresh rate. Two totally unrelated things.

If the data source is 60hz, this will certainly cause a lag...

The set has to read two frames at 60 Hz, calculate a "difference" frame, then display them all in sequence.

Frame 1 from input ... loaded into 1st frame buffer...
Frame 2 from input... loaded into 2nd frame buffer...
Set calculates the difference betwen these two frames...
Displays frame 1...
Displays frame 1.5...
Displays frame 2...
Repeat!


It HAS to cause lag, just due to the nature of the higher refresh rate!
You can't calculate an intermediate frame till you have the following frame!

When watching movies or cable/satellite sports, it results in smoother action, as moving objects are less "jerky" on screen.
Lag would be totally unnoticable unless you had two different sets side-by-side displaying the same source video.

For Games without 120hz refresh rate?
Critical fail.


Spend more for fancy television, have more lag problems. Bummer!

 

[bavelb]

If it were true that there is an innate lag in PS3 in general, then all of the games would exhibit the same lag. The issue is specific to Pinball Arcade. Saying that it doesn't lag on the xbox doesn't necessarily mean that the xbox has less lag, it just means that the xbox version of the Pinball Arcade software doesn't have the problem. The bigger point of the xbox not having the lag, is that it means the display is not a part of the issue since one is comparing the same game played on the same screen. When people hear lag, they are immediately tripped up into thinking that it is the TV settings that are at fault. Yes, that can be, but only if it happens to "every single game" played on the display, whether it be xbox, ps3, or PC even. It becomes quite obvious when every game played has controller lag, -that's- when you know it is the TV settings. As well, even in the case where your settings are correct for gaming and it is said that it can still give you lag because of your tv, then you will see it in every game if that is the real problem. If you only see it in one game, then it isn't the display causing it. Looking at the info in this thread, it is clear that the issue is not the display settings since other games play fine, as well as the same game on an xbox on the same display doesn't have the problem.

Try setting your TV to a setting that is not good for playing video games, then try to play any game, whether it be xbox, ps3 or PC. Not just Pinball Arcade, but any game. It should ruin the experience for all of them, not just Pinball Arcade...

Now explain why I move the hdmi to my PC monitor everything is fine.

Thank you. This is not a PS3 issue. It's not a TV issue. It's not an HDMI cable issue. It's a Pinball Arcade software issue. Period. The idea that this is somehow a problem specific to TV display modes or the PS3 in the general is just laughable, given the huge number of other games requiring incredibly specific timing don't have any issues on the PS3.

Please read my post on the previous page. TPA plays perfectly when I use another monitor. All highscores in my sig are made on that monitor and I feel I have perfect control and no lag. If TPA was the issue, I would have similar results there. You are both both making the issue less complex than it is. I think there are seperate issues at hand here, and simply stamping your feet saying its TPA doesn't make it true.

 

[bavelb]

I'll double check later but I'd assume you are right.. In this case could it be their TVs are downscaling which causes lag...

the people who this is affecting, what is the resolution of the TV you are having problems with?

both 720p and 1080p. I play on my monitor on 720p (it doesnt support the ps3 in 1080p) so the downscaling doesn't affect me at all.

Anyways, I gave you lot my results of extensive testing, and people still seem to cherry pick the results and claim those support their theories that it's either the tv or TPA. I don't want to support my claims and testmethods by my profession and why you all should believe me because of them, but I have been very thorough in testing all the different combinations of ps3, xbox, tpa, tv and monitors.

The final result is simply put:
it's neither JUST the PS3 (because the is no lag on my PC monitor)
or JUST the TV (because my xbox has NO issues playing TPA)
or JUST TPA (because when I play TPA on the PC monitor there is no issue).

It's most likely a combination of at least the top 2. I also experience lag on Zen, so how much lag TPA adds I can't tell you, but the fine folks of FS can tinker with their PS3 version all they want: it will NEVER play as crisp on my TV as it does on my xbox due the top 2 factors. I have accepted that fact and so should others with similar problems.

 

[The Doctor]

they should just put in an option to change the response time +/- so every one can tweak it within their respective parameters.

kind of like how music games work

 

[Jan Duin]

I’ll try connecting my ps3 to a PC monitor tonight and see how that goes. I can tell you It’s pretty frustrating having played TPA without lag on my previous TV and now having to deal with lag. The game looks a lot better though hahaha L

TBH with the current work load FS has already I can’t see them fix this problem any time soon, being a problem of a select number of PS3 users, unfortunately.

 

[Actionball]

they should just put in an option to change the response time +/- so every one can tweak it within their respective parameters.

kind of like how music games work

Wont work on a game where the timing is subjective. A note scrolling down the screen has only one correct time for the button to be pressed but how does the game know when you intended to flip?

I am on the side of it being an LCD related issue with laggy upscaling/downscaling or artificial frame creation (any non 60fps refresh) being a suspect because as far as I have experienced computer monitors run what is output how they are told and nothing more, unlike fancy tv's. Not that this is not a code problem, but finding a pattern to when it lags is a first step.

An important set of data to gather would be the experience of people NOT playing on an LCD (LED's are just LCD's lit with fancy bulbs) but on plasma, DLP or even a vintage CRT HDTV.

I have zero lag on a DLP.

My previous LCD was a 120hz samsung and it had some lag on WPHOF while the cheapie Target sourced tv before that a 1080p 60hz did not have that lag.

 

[cmotors]

Now explain why I move the hdmi to my PC monitor everything is fine.

That's a good question. It doesn't necessarily mean that the TV is itself the problem though. If this were the only evidence on the table, then we would have to concur that the issue is an innate TV lag causing it. However, it is not the only evidence. You can't erase one set of evidence because it doesn't fit the story. If you accept the evidence that TV response lag is not the problem, and the evidence that you don't have the issue on the monitor, then it points to something else happening that we don't have enough knowledge to explain why it is happening. Since we don't have an explainable idea of what is specifically causing the issue, it doesn't mean you stop accepting certain pieces of evidence in order to make everything fit what knowledge you do have. There is a piece of information missing from what we know about these types of problems, and my guess it is something that Pinball Arcade does in the background that we have no knowledge of. It isn't caused by scaling between 720 and 1080 since it doesn't resolve the issue. Only the developers would really know what is going on in this case since it seems we have exhausted the possibilities that we are aware of, with no unanimous resolution of the problem. When you have sets of evidence that are all confirmed correct and they don't seem to make sense when put together, it usually means that there is some piece of information missing that would make it all make sense. That appears to be the case here.

Please read my post on the previous page. TPA plays perfectly when I use another monitor. All highscores in my sig are made on that monitor and I feel I have perfect control and no lag. If TPA was the issue, I would have similar results there. You are both both making the issue less complex than it is. I think there are seperate issues at hand here, and simply stamping your feet saying its TPA doesn't make it true.

The assumption here is that the monitor is somehow doing better since it somehow is not causing any lag. This is a simplistic view, and it is an assumption only. The monitor is indeed allowing you to play lag free, so I am not disagreeing with you that it removes the problem since other people have said the same thing as well. But, is it because the monitor is not introducing lag, or is it because the pinball arcade game is reacting differently on the screen because of its size (and not because of 720p/1080p scaling either) or some other unknown factor? It comes down to this, if you have to play ALL of your ps3 games on the monitor because you have lag on ALL of them played on the TV, then I would agree that innate TV lag is the cause. If it is ONLY TPA that has to be played on the monitor, then innate TV lag is NOT the problem. To be honest, I personally think that fragmentation of the evidence is the real cause of the confusion here. Picking and choosing evidence based on assumptions and lack of information will not steer true.

I don't experience lag on zen or marvel pinball, so I know my TV is not introducing the lag. I'm sure if I connect to a monitor, I won't experience the issue with TPA. Doesn't necassarily mean that innate TV lag is the issue though

 

[ScotchYeti]

I am very curious what happens when TPA will be finally released in Europe. The refresh rate should change to 50Hz (instead of 60Hz from the US) so the lag might go away.

 

[bavelb]

That's a good question. It doesn't necessarily mean that the TV is itself the problem though. If this were the only evidence on the table, then we would have to concur that the issue is an innate TV lag causing it. However, it is not the only evidence. You can't erase one set of evidence because it doesn't fit the story. If you accept the evidence that TV response lag is not the problem, and the evidence that you don't have the issue on the monitor, then it points to something else happening that we don't have enough knowledge to explain why it is happening. Since we don't have an explainable idea of what is specifically causing the issue, it doesn't mean you stop accepting certain pieces of evidence in order to make everything fit what knowledge you do have. There is a piece of information missing from what we know about these types of problems, and my guess it is something that Pinball Arcade does in the background that we have no knowledge of. It isn't caused by scaling between 720 and 1080 since it doesn't resolve the issue. Only the developers would really know what is going on in this case since it seems we have exhausted the possibilities that we are aware of, with no unanimous resolution of the problem. When you have sets of evidence that are all confirmed correct and they don't seem to make sense when put together, it usually means that there is some piece of information missing that would make it all make sense. That appears to be the case here.



The assumption here is that the monitor is somehow doing better since it somehow is not causing any lag. This is a simplistic view, and it is an assumption only. The monitor is indeed allowing you to play lag free, so I am not disagreeing with you that it removes the problem since other people have said the same thing as well. But, is it because the monitor is not introducing lag, or is it because the pinball arcade game is reacting differently on the screen because of its size (and not because of 720p/1080p scaling either) or some other unknown factor? It comes down to this, if you have to play ALL of your ps3 games on the monitor because you have lag on ALL of them played on the TV, then I would agree that innate TV lag is the cause. If it is ONLY TPA that has to be played on the monitor, then innate TV lag is NOT the problem. To be honest, I personally think that fragmentation of the evidence is the real cause of the confusion here. Picking and choosing evidence based on assumptions and lack of information will not steer true.

I don't experience lag on zen or marvel pinball, so I know my TV is not introducing the lag. I'm sure if I connect to a monitor, I won't experience the issue with TPA. Doesn't necassarily mean that innate TV lag is the issue though

I have lag with Zen on the TV as well. Havent tried Pinball FX2 tbh, but there is some really ****ty interaction between my TV and the PS3. 360 on my TV plays like a dream luckily and I ahve now purchased TPA on it.

Theyshould just put in an option to change the response time +/- so every one can tweak it within their respective parameters.

kind of like how music games work

the music and notes are 100% predicatable and you can move the music or the notes to a degree where input lag is not removed but the effect of it is gone by lagging the music or the onscreen information with it due to calibrating. An unpredicatable pinball can't be calibrated.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

An unpredicatable pinball can't be calibrated.

Actually, it could, but it would vastly increase the complexity of FarSight's physics engine. Here's how it could be done:

1. Calibrate lag by showing an image of a pinball falling across a line and asking the player to flip as soon as he sees the ball first touch the line. Do this 5 or 10 times and take an average lag value. Let's say it's 50 milliseconds for player X.
2. Start the table. Physics engine begins tracking the ball position and keeping track of where the ball has been in the last second or so in a little first-in/first-out buffer.
3. At some point, ball reaches flipper and player flips. Because of the lag, he will flip too late.
4. Physics engine receives the command to flip and resets the ball position back to where it was 50 ms ago. It can do this because it has been saving this information in the little buffer.
5. Physics engine now flips and ball heads in the desired path (assuming player X is skillful!).

The difficult part is handling multiple rapid (or simultaneous) flips, a flip and a nudge simultaneously, multiball interactions, teaching the physics engine not to go back 50 ms if no collision will take place (to avoid players slowing down the game by rapid flipping), etc. I believe this is possible, but it may be A) beyond the capabilities of mobile devices, and B) a nightmare to implement and debug. Also, if the lag value is high (>200 ms or so), there will be a pronounced jerk in the displayed ball position whenever the physics engine "goes back in time" to correct for lag.

 

[BonzoGonzo]

I am very curious what happens when TPA will be finally released in Europe. The refresh rate should change to 50Hz (instead of 60Hz from the US) so the lag might go away.

1st post after lurking for months yay!!!

on topic: that would have been the case 20 years ago on old cathode ray tvs, not today 60hz is standard for many years now

slightly off topic: about lag in general...

the biggest culprit is ususally the display that the console is connected to...

i play fighting games, where lag is a reall killer becouse of the correct input timing for moves and combos (with your 3 frame moves, 1 or 0 frame links and so on) so i have my xbox360 (which i bought for street fighter 4) connected via vga to a lg w2442pa 24 inch widescreen 1080p monitor... this monitor is very good, and has very little display lag which averages at around ~4-5ms, where 1 frame is ~16ms, so i get less than half a frame delay... that makes it a viable monitor for fighting games, shoot em ups (especialy true becouse of the available portrait mode on the lg) and of course pinball.

now the point i'm trying to make is, with these kind of games, especialy pinball, you reeeeeealy feel the lag on a display that has one (lag that is).

for example i played pinball fx1/2 on a 60 hz cathode ray tv, plasma tv, 2 lg computer monitors, lcd tv and a led tv... the smallest lag (none) was on the cathode ray and my lg... the other lg was worse, then lcd tv, then led tv, and absolutley worst was the old plasma tv... coz you can really feel the difference -> the same speed of the ball, at the same position on the flipper, at the same time of me pressing the button just didn't yield the same results, or better, the angle of the shot was way off... more lag = less proper ball control

and there is one more thing with lag, which is wery noticeable -> wireless vs wired

when i forgot to recharge (which i usually don't) and my batteries flated out on the xbox360 controler, i plugged in my wired xbox360 contorler which i use mainly for my pc... and hey presto, the wired controller was much snappier i.e. less laggy, so i had to actually reajust my timing, becouse i was pressing the buttons a tad too soon

so yeah... most people actually don't see or feel the difference, so for them lag does'nt exist... the problems only arise when you DO feel the lag and its messing up your gameplay

 

[RetroDude]

Now explain why I move the hdmi to my PC monitor everything is fine.

Computer monitors are designed to work with multiple refresh rates.
They will set themselves automatically to whatever the source rate is.
This is quite different than a 120hz television having to convert a 60hz source to 120hz.

 

[bavelb]

Read my question in regards to the text above it. I know my monitor does less processing and therefor has less input lag.