Bug Slow downs on rMBP and El Capitan

[JohnAtl]

I'm experiencing major slowdowns during gameplay on my two-week old 2015 Retina MacBook Pro. The slowdown is sometimes to 1/10 or so of the normal speed.
Tried quitting all other programs, to no avail.
I'm running the latest version from the App Store in El Capitan 10.11.

Thanks,
John

 

[Megahurtz]

This problem has existed, and has been widely reported, for 2 years. Farsight are aware of it, but seem incapable of fixing it. I don't think the mac version is much of a priority for them.

 

[MagnumXL]

I don't know about the Mac version slowdowns for sure, but I do know that only happens on the PC version when your hardware is not capable of running the table at the given resolution or settings (e.g. ball reflection option needs more GPU power as well). Macs generally have weak GPUs and given how many "Retina" models there are now that might be particularly the case if the game was being run at Retina resolutions. In other words, what happens if you run at lower resolutions, for example? It could also be a driver issue for some GPUs only.

I had the slowdowns occur on my Mac Mini when Pinball Arcade first came out, but I haven't seen it for some time. Admittedly, I've mostly used VMWare to load up Windows version to play it instead since the lighting is so much better looking even in the DX9 version (let alone the DX11 version if one uses Boot Camp and Windows7 or newer and have a supported DX11 GPU), but I just tried several tables out under the Steam Mac version (Junkyard, Circus Voltaire, Firepower) under El Capitan and it never once slowed down here at 1680x1050 on my 2012 Mac Mini Quad i7 with 8GB ram and Intel HD4000 (Post processing and Anti-alias are OFF). But if I try to use ball reflections in VMWare or on my old Windows machine that has an NVidia 7900GT, it goes into that super slow motion mode during multiball or on newer tables or at certain resolutions. If I run the Windows version on my 2008 Macbook Pro with an NVidia 8600M GT, though from Boot Camp (with XP), it will run just fine with ball reflections turned on at its native resolution (still less than 1080p). So the slow motion thing is 100% video card, resolution and graphic feature affected in Windows.

There are no real video options (i.e. like ball reflections) on the Mac version (just that seemingly worthless post-processing features that seems to make tables look even brighter; that feature also seemed to be the cause of the slowdown in early versions here) and anti-aliasing which will bring the game to a half frame-wise if your GPU isn't up to it (i.e. leave it off if you're having problems). I leave both off those off at 1680x1050 and so far it's running 100% smooth under El Capitan. On the plus side, the basic ball looks far better on the Mac version than the basic (non reflected ball) on the PC version. But for the most part, the lighting looks better on the Windows version and as far as I can tell, this is pure laziness on the Mac version. The DX9 version usually doesn't have any special lighting effects (there are a few exceptions like High Speed's GI Lighting and TAF's GI lighting, but not all tables have GI lighting in DX9), but it's more like the gamma settings are WAY too bright on the Mac version (e.g. if I turn my monitor's gamma setting way down, which doesn't look right with the regular Mac GUI), and turn contrast/brightness up, the tables look far better in terms of a "darker" effect. At normal settings, they all look like it's broad daylight in the room whereas the Windows DX9 versions typically look like a semi-dark room and the DX11 version looks like a fairly dark room. More to the point, with El Capitan now having the new METAL API (akin to DX12), they could easily bring Pinball Arcade into DX11 parity, but I doubt they will bother.

 

[Mamebase]

Although the problem (Intermittent slowdown), and it's workaround/solution (change display settings, then change them back to their original settings) have been widely reported, the problem appears to have reasserted itself with the release of OSX 10.11, and the solution no longer appears to correct the problem.

I have no insight into the inner workings of Farsight, but the constant assertions that the Mac version is a low priority, or that they don't care is in my opinion, unfair at best unless, and until some sort of 'official' word comes from the company itself concerning the existence of the problem, and some sort of assurances that the problem is being addressed.

This problem is a frustrating one, but I, for one, would like to hear Farsight's position before leaping to any conclusions...

 

[FlippyFloppy]

I have no insight into the inner workings of Farsight, but the constant assertions that the Mac version is a low priority, or that they don't care is in my opinion, unfair at best unless, and until some sort of 'official' word comes from the company itself concerning the existence of the problem, and some sort of assurances that the problem is being addressed.

The issue was being addressed by a Programmer some time ago until he left Farsight, another Programmer couldn't determine the cause of the issue and eventually left Farsight. So now the new Mac programmer is working on resolving the issue. I spoke with him yesterday regarding the issue and he sounded hopeful that he could address some of the performance issues soon but to resolve the issue entirely will take some more time.

 

[JohnAtl]

Glad someone is looking at it.
Between this and the glitchy performance on iOS 9, I have $300+ in pinball I can't play.

Should be good on hardware:
2.5GHz quad-core Intel Core i7 processor (Turbo Boost up to 3.7GHz) with 6MB shared L3 cache
16GB of 1600MHz DDR3L
Intel Iris Pro Graphics
AMD Radeon R9 M370X with 2GB of GDDR5

Thanks,
John

 

[MagnumXL]

I don't know if he'll even be able to even FIND the problem. As I've mentioned above, this same problem appears in the PC (Windows) version if you don't have enough CPU (or more likely GPU) power for a given resolution and/or feature setting. I get ZERO slow-downs on my 2012 Quad i7 Mac Mini with an Intel 4000HD GPU at 1680x1050 (24" monitor's native resolution) with basic settings. In fact, the ONLY time I get the problem in OS X now is if I turn anti-alias up to 6x or 8x (fine at 2x or 4x or off). THEN it immediately goes slow-motion. THAT is the exact same thing as the PC version on my old AMD machine with an NVidia 7900GT except it will start doing it on a table like Junkyard when more than one ball is on the table at once (multiball) IF ball reflections are turned on. Turning on Anti-Alias will also cause the issue. It's simply not up to those settings. My 2008 Macbook Pro with an NVidia 8600M GT will be fine if booted into Windows with ball reflections turned on, but turning up anti-alias will cause the problem eventually (possibly on a larger external monitor; I haven't tried it lately on that). I've got the Steam version now (yeah I bought it AFTER I already bought a lot of App Store tables because it was on sale (1st two seasons half off) and I wanted to try the PC version).

My point is that I think it's possible that the Mac version doesn't have anything wrong with it based on the fact I don't hae the problem on my Macs at the above given resolutions until I turn up Anti-Alias to unreasonable values for that GPU. You've got people in this thread talking about running this game on RETINA Macs. That's resolutions 2x or more what I'm running (newer Macs up to 5k monitors). It's VERY possible that these machines simply cannot run the game at native resolutions and/or turning up settings too much. It's also possible certain GPUs have something wrong in their driver feature set that is making them behave like they cannot handle a given resolution or setting (or something in Pinball Arcade it's using that some drivers don't handle right in OS X). I don't see other people commenting whether they tried the same machine booting into Windows with Boot Camp for example to compare or if they tried turning off all anti-alias settings and lowering the resolution as low as possible to see if it makes any difference. What CPU and what GPU are they using? How can they hope for Farsight to fix the problem when they don't provide enough information?

JohnATI provides his machine specs, but doesn't comment on the machine's resolutions he's tried or settings used? Native resolution in notebook mode? External monitor? Have you tried lowering the resolution? Do you have post-processing turned off? Do you have anti-alias turned off? Do you have Windows on it and tried that version (demo even?). I see you have two GPUs (Retina Iris Pro and AMD Radeon R9 M370X). Have you tried it with both GPUs? With all the settings turned down on both? Was there ANY differences?

I used to make Visual Pinball tables. When people reported bugs, I needed to be able to recreate them. If it was just on one machine with a strange GPU, they were probably out of luck. I realize Apple only makes so many configurations, but it's hard to believe that both the Iris Pro and the AMD are both causing slow-motion problems unless your settings are too high (yeah they shouldn't be, but with a Retina machine who knows; Apple had "choppy" Mission Control animations on some Retina models until El Capitan changed the GUI to the new Metal API. Apple has bad drivers often and they use under-powered GPUs for Retina type resolutions, IMO. Gaming at Retina resolutions (especially the new 4K and 5K iMacs) is ill-advised, IMO. Like I said, the Intel GPUs couldn't even animate the Mission Control feature properly in Yosemite at Retina resolutions. That's sad and that's why I can't automatically dismiss the possibility this is simply the result of too little GPU power for a given resolution and setting. As I said, I get smooth play on my Mac Mini Quad i7 at 1680x1050 in El Capitan, but if I turn Anti-Alias up to 6x or more, it goes slow motion instantly and stays there on newer tables. Turn Anti-Aliasing off or down to 4x or less and it's fine. But that's not even 1080p, let alone Retina resolutions. I realize the 4000HD is older, but it's also not trying to do Retina.

 

[Jay]

Macs generally have weak GPUs and given how many "Retina" models there are now that might be particularly the case if the game was being run at Retina resolutions.

That used to be true, but Apple has stepped up its game in that department and is in fact offloading a lot of graphics processing onto the GPU instead of the CPU. Some older Macs (more than four years) can have less beefy graphics cards, but most current systems should be fine. And now with Apple implementing their Metal technology, there's no excuse for poor graphics with Mac gaming. The issue is that Farsight apparently has not put a big investment into a Mac-specific port of the game. Even though my Mac Pro is quite capable of running TPA at its highest setting, there's no real way to adjust the look of the game and it pales in comparison to ports for other platforms. I do agree, unfortunately, that I don't think Farsight will ever make the Mac version look any better, especially given their apparent turnover in programmers.

As for that slow-down issue with OS versions up to 10.10, going into the display setting and changing any of the parameters and then changing them back would eliminate the slow-down problem (until you restarted your computer). But with 10.11, something changed so now that workaround no longer applies. The slowdown always happens. Mac users are basically screwed for now (unless you don't want to update your OS).

This is one reason I'm very picky about TPA tables that I buy. Why should I spend money on something that doesn't work correctly? If the games looked and ran as good on my Mac as the console versions (and there's no technical reason why they couldn't), I'd be more inclined to have a larger assortment.

I'm also really frustrated by TPA's seemingly random camera implementation. From table to table, the numbered camera settings make little sense. View 3 on Funhouse looks completely different than View 3 on Whirlwind. I think this mess (once again) is only on the Mac.

Incidentally, my Mac Pro is connected to a simple 27" HDMI monitor, and I get the slowdown every single time, even with TPA's graphics settings at their lowest level. So it's not just an issue for higher display levels.

 

[Mamebase]

First and foremost, a personal and public "Thank You" to FlippyFloppy for acknowledging the issue, and letting us know that it is, in fact, being addressed.

Second, working from a "Better to light a single candle, than curse the darkness" standpoint, what, if anything, can we as end users in the Mac community do to help pinpoint where the problem exists, in an effort to help resolve it? (System log files, tests with specific settings, etc.)

I, for one would be willing to work with a modified version of TPA that captures, and logs gameplay in realtime, and send the data to Farsight, if such a program were made available.

For what it's worth, I'm running a 27" non-Retina iMac (Late 2013), with an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 775M 2048 MB.

The problem was not simply one of slow motion, but intermittent slowdown, and sudden return to normal speed. As Jay pointed out, Prior to OSX 10.11, changing display parameters (for example resolution), and restoring them to the previous settings appeared to eliminate the problem, until one needed to restart the system. Updating to 10.11 has brought about a recurrence of this problem, and the prior workaround no longer revolves the issue. I'd love to be able to provide Farsight with more diagnostic information, but I'd need, at the very least, some guidelines as to what information would be helpful.

 

[MagnumXL]

From what you two are saying, it sounds like both the Mac Pro's AMD GPU and the NVidia GeForce GTX 775M have the same issue. I merely have an Intel 4000HD and I don't seem to have the issue until I turn up settings too high. But that brings about my next question. How long does it typically take for this slowdown to rear it's ugly head? I've only been playing an half hour to an hour at a time lately so if it doesn't show up right away maybe I'm not seeing it "yet" ?

Oh and I AM getting an "SSL" connection error every time I run Pinball Arcade in El Capitan for some reason.

As for buying the tables, I get the Steam packs and then I get the Windows versions as well. That way if the Mac version acts up, I can still play it in VMWare or on my Macbook Pro in XP or on my old XP machine (or if I can ever get an SSD to replace my RAID0 setup for one of the drives on this Mac Mini, I can put Windows 8.1 I have sitting here unused on it and/or upgrade then to Windows 10 and play the game in DX11 mode)

 

[Jay]

What's interesting (at least for me) is that the slowdown occurs at seemingly random intervals. I've launched a game and the slowdown was there immediately, then dissipated after about two minutes. Then about five minutes later, it would come back. Other times it doesn't show up until I'm well into a game. But no matter what table I play, it always happens at some point during a game. Another interesting thing is that since I've installed 10.11, the slowdown is much more "choppy" when it begins and when it ends, as if the framerate was being choked somehow. Previously, the slowdown/speedup transition was really smooth. The choppiness now makes it much more likely that I'll lose a ball during gameplay.

[BTW, MagnumXL, I assume your user name is a reference to Cedar Point, home of cheese-on-a-stick. On my visit this past summer, I had an interesting talk with the guy who's been taking care of the pinball machines there.]

 

[Mamebase]

For me, the intermittent slowdown issue occurs not only during gameplay (any table), but during the table selection process as well (scrolling through games becomes slower, and the pulsing glow behind the selected table drops in framerate as well). Even before gameplay begins, as the camera is moving about, the framerate will drop, and then resume normal speed.

 

[bog]

I too went through this issue with intermittent slowdowns on my Mac and I'm convinced it's related to the Retina display. I recently purchased a second HDMI Samung monitor. This monitor is only 1080p. When I play on that monitor I never have a lag issue. If I play on the native Retina screen, I have several slow downs during my games. These last only 10-15 seconds at a time and then things speed back up again.

So, if you are sick with lagging gameplay on your MBP+Retina ... try hooking up an older 1080p monitor and check it out.

 

[Jay]

Actually, I have a similar setup. My Mac Pro is connected via HDMI to a 1080p monitor. And I have the game's graphics settings at its lowest level.

 

[Mamebase]

The other night, I updated to OSX 10.11.1

I'm still waiting for the app store release of the newest TPA, but the couple of games I've played since updating to 10.11.1 do not yet appear to be having the slowdown issue.

It may be too early to tell yet, but has anyone else updated to 10.11.1 yet, and if so, is TPA working better for you?

 

[Jay]

I'm up-to-date and still have the issue. I noticed that in my display settings, there's a box checked that reads, "Use external monitor". I don't remember seeing that before, and there's no way to un-check it. I've got a Mac Pro, so I have no choice but to use an external monitor.

 

[FlippyFloppy]

The latest release should address some slow down issues, if you are still encountering the slow down, please report it here and i'll forward it to our Mac programmer.

You must be able to reproduce a bug more than once before reporting.
And make sure to reproduce it yourself more than 5 times to accurately calculate the frequency.

Title Bug: Begin the title with one of the following: Crash, Art, Display, Performance, Physics, or General. Then state where the bug occurs, followed by a brief description.
Ex: “General – Scared Stiff: Ball goes through Crate at high velocity”
Mac Pro with Retina Display
Graphics Card: NVIDIA Geforce GT 650m
Ram: 8GB
Version #(Bottom right of game screen):
Display Mode: “Windowed/Full Screen”
Display Resolution: “640x480, 800x600, 1024x768”

Frequency of Occurrence: “60% of the time” , “Every ball that enters the crate”

Expected Result: “During 'Crate Multiball' ball enters the crate and is launched back into play from the right”
Actual Result:”Entering the crate at maximum velocity causes the ball to fly through the crate into the deadheads”

Comment: Please be descriptive. Explain the steps taken to produce the bug and explain exactly what happened as a result.

 

[Jay]

Hi FlippyFloppy. I was able to reproduce the slow-down repeatedly (re-launching the game each time). It happens on all tables.

Late 2013 Mac Pro
Dual AMD FirePro D300 2048 MB
32 GB RAM
Version: 5.3.0 (5.3.3)
Full Screen (Windowed gives the same result)
1920x1080 (the resolution doesn't seem to matter)

I have an HD monitor plugged directly into the Mac Pro's HDMI jack. I've also tried plugging into an HDMI jack in a Thunderbolt dock I have. That didn't make a difference.

Frequency: Every time at approximately 3:20 into gameplay, the slowdown begins. It starts gradually but becomes severe within a few seconds. The slow-down lasts approximately 30 seconds, and then the ball gradually speeds up back to normal. The timing is the same every game.

I've tried changing various parameters in the Options menu, and none of those seem to have an effect. The slow-down always happens regardless. This problem has existed since 2013. There's also documentation of the problem on other platforms as well, including Playstation. Interestingly, iOS versions have always functioned fine.

 

[FlippyFloppy]

I forwarded the message to the Mac programmer, Playstation has some slowdowns depending on how much memory is used. During multiball events and while playing in lower camera angles tends to use a lot of the systems memory. Does your slowdown occur on every table and in every camera angle?

 

[Jay]

Does your slowdown occur on every table and in every camera angle?

Yes. None of the settings seems to make a difference. At about 3:20, the slowdown starts every single time. For that matter, I haven't found any of the settings to make much difference. For example, no anti-aliasing doesn't look much different from 8x anti-aliasing. Turning on Post Processing tends to give many of the tables a more muted and slightly darker color scheme, but that's about it. Here are some screen shots, the first without any graphic processing additions, and the second with all the settings at their maximum.