So, what really happened....

[steven120566]

I have a few questions still, and although I have searched this forum for the answers, I may have missed the answers.

1) So, did this all go down because Zen "courted" the table manufacturers? Or, did Scientific just decide internally to approach Zen?
2) If Zen sought out to win over the pinball companies to expand their offerings to real pinball properties, are they now courting Stern, Gottlieb, and even Jersey Jack and Spooky?

II wonder how it all happened in the first place. What entity spearheaded the charge for Zen to get the license...was Scientific unsatisfies with Farsight or did Zen proactively try to show them that they could do better with said licenses?

Any insight or knowledge on that?

 

[Gorgar]

We will probably never know for sure, but there is some pretty good speculation in the recent blahcade podcast

 

[vfpcoder]

The best source of information on this is the Blahcade Podcast.

Here's the link to the YouTube version:
https://youtu.be/9on9ccQk9tE

This is, as stated, speculation; but these two members of this forum are privy to inside info which leads credence to the narrative.

 

[steven120566]

The best source of information on this is the Blahcade Podcast.

Here's the link to the YouTube version:
https://youtu.be/9on9ccQk9tE

This is, as stated, speculation; but these two members of this forum are privy to inside info which leads credence to the narrative.

Thanks gorgar, vfpcoder, I will check the blahcade out. These were the questions that have been going thru my head lol...

 

[shutyertrap]

In addition to listening to our podcast, you can also read the essay I wrote for This Week In Pinball that covers the same topic for those less familiar with the digital pinball scene.

https://thisweekinpinball.com/guest-post-speculation-on-what-happened-with-the-williams-bally-digital-license/

Additionally, we had Mel Kirk, the VP of Publishing for Zen, on our podcast for this week (comes out Monday) and he said there are certain aspects we nailed on the head. So while we certainly will never get the complete unadulterated story, I am very confident we came about as close as we could with the information available.

 

[blindpeser]

In addition to listening to our podcast, you can also read the essay I wrote for This Week In Pinball that covers the same topic for those less familiar with the digital pinball scene.

https://thisweekinpinball.com/guest-post-speculation-on-what-happened-with-the-williams-bally-digital-license/

Additionally, we had Mel Kirk, the VP of Publishing for Zen, on our podcast for this week (comes out Monday) and he said there are certain aspects we nailed on the head. So while we certainly will never get the complete unadulterated story, I am very confident we came about as close as we could with the information available.

Good read mate. I wonder if Farsight strikes back or loses the interest in digital pinball soon. Didn't follow it for a long time, but I like Zens social media activities. Farsights activities are a desaster, especially for Stern Pinball Arcade. There are 2 posts on Facebook this year, one is refering to TPA and the license countdown. This is completely opposed to Sterns business handling. People just arent tied to Farsight nor their products anymore. I bet Farsight is heading into a new direction soon.

 

[shutyertrap]

Good read mate. I wonder if Farsight strikes back or loses the interest in digital pinball soon. Didn't follow it for a long time, but I like Zens social media activities. Farsights activities are a desaster, especially for Stern Pinball Arcade. There are 2 posts on Facebook this year, one is refering to TPA and the license countdown. This is completely opposed to Sterns business handling. People just arent tied to Farsight nor their products anymore. I bet Farsight is heading into a new direction soon.

Keep in mind how small FarSight is in relation to Zen. I’m sure Zen has a dedicated social media person as opposed to FarSight having someone who has social media in addition to a host of other duties.

 

[Blkthorne]

Just feels like all the air got taken out of Farsight's sails, Norman retires, they stop the monthly release schedule with the thought that where will a person go if they want real pinball tables??? then the news that they are losing the Williams' license and finding out it is Zen picking up the rights. Farsight is stuck with an aging engine that is in a big need to be upgraded and a new competitor for real pinball tables that have the rights to one of the best licenses in pinball. While I know Farsight has said they have other things they are working on, I have a hard time believing it will even come close to TPA's success.

 

[Badfinger]

I figure it was Farsight's too slow to fix bugs/add features that in 201x should be awesome (including UI and MP), and too often breaking of something including new product/tables!?!

This all told me they were skeleton crew / part timers or contract programmers and not taken very seriously by management .

We just want good working pinball? VP/FP among others, prove it's not impossible just among fans of pinball?

 

[shutyertrap]

I figure it was Farsight's too slow to fix bugs/add features that in 201x should be awesome (including UI and MP), and too often breaking of something including new product/tables!?!

This all told me they were skeleton crew / part timers or contract programmers and not taken very seriously by management .

We just want good working pinball? VP/FP among others, prove it's not impossible just among fans of pinball?

Yes FarSight has a small crew but none are part timers or contract programmers. They all work there in the building, their lead programmer has been with the game since at least the start of TPA.

 

[Chellspecker]

I’m just a bit frustrated that as an end user having purchased ALL the Bally and Williams tables on TPA, I’m in danger of losing them due to licensing concerns. I could care less who owns the license as long as I get to play the tables at the end of the day. End users don’t have many rights in these situations, we effectively give them up every time we “Agree” to an EULA. It all comes down to which company can turn the most profits for shareholders, but their profits come from end users! Generally FarSight has been pretty good with maintaining support for the tables they have released but obviously if they are no longer able to make any money selling those legacy table to new customers, it’s only a matter of time before they discontinue offering updates and support for the users who have been loyal since day one. Eventually I’m pretty sure I’ll be re-purchasing tables I want to play that I bought on TPA on a new platform, whether I like it or not.
As a side note, a similar thing happened with Bally slot machine apps on iOS. They released a whole bunch of them individually, even for a while forcing people to buy separate iPhone and iPad versions, and then one day shortly after an iOS update, POOF they were all gone and no longer supported. Couple hundred dollars down the drain there. I guess it’s not less than you might lose on a night out at the casino. Wait a minute.... someone’s getting rich off me!

 

[RuySan]

I’m just a bit frustrated that as an end user having purchased ALL the Bally and Williams tables on TPA, I’m in danger of losing them due to licensing concerns. I could care less who owns the license as long as I get to play the tables at the end of the day. End users don’t have many rights in these situations, we effectively give them up every time we “Agree” to an EULA. It all comes down to which company can turn the most profits for shareholders, but their profits come from end users! Generally FarSight has been pretty good with maintaining support for the tables they have released but obviously if they are no longer able to make any money selling those legacy table to new customers, it’s only a matter of time before they discontinue offering updates and support for the users who have been loyal since day one. Eventually I’m pretty sure I’ll be re-purchasing tables I want to play that I bought on TPA on a new platform, whether I like it or not.
As a side note, a similar thing happened with Bally slot machine apps on iOS. They released a whole bunch of them individually, even for a while forcing people to buy separate iPhone and iPad versions, and then one day shortly after an iOS update, POOF they were all gone and no longer supported. Couple hundred dollars down the drain there. I guess it’s not less than you might lose on a night out at the casino. Wait a minute.... someone’s getting rich off me!

I don't think we'll lose the tables on TPA even if Farsight goes down. We'll loose online leaderboards, sure, and that's a shame, but i suppose steam will still offer the last version of the software for download.

 

[shutyertrap]

I don't think we'll lose the tables on TPA even if Farsight goes down. We'll loose online leaderboards, sure, and that's a shame, but i suppose steam will still offer the last version of the software for download.

Agree. I always felt for the people that bought certain games that were multiplayer only and then the company decides to kill the server, thus rendering the game useless. Sure you still own it, you just can't play it!

 

[msilcommand]

In addition to listening to our podcast, you can also read the essay I wrote for This Week In Pinball that covers the same topic for those less familiar with the digital pinball scene.

https://thisweekinpinball.com/guest-post-speculation-on-what-happened-with-the-williams-bally-digital-license/

Additionally, we had Mel Kirk, the VP of Publishing for Zen, on our podcast for this week (comes out Monday) and he said there are certain aspects we nailed on the head. So while we certainly will never get the complete unadulterated story, I am very confident we came about as close as we could with the information available.

The thing that troubles me most is what kind of license lets you make a table, an entire game even, and then disallows you from selling it if the license is pulled? I could understand not being allowed to sell them on a new version of TBA, but Farsight should be protected to sell all the tables they were licensed for on the current version of TBA infinitely. Farsight should not have ever signed anything that said they could no longer sell previously licensed tables on the same game. A video game is not a physical table. It is lines of code and images. If it were my company, I would keep the physical table code (which Farsight owns, cuz they wrote it), make new art, new sound, and recode the core gameplay code myself, with just enough differences to not infringe, then release them as Farsight tables, and tell Williams to go suck an egg.

 

[shutyertrap]

The thing that troubles me most is what kind of license lets you make a table, an entire game even, and then disallows you from selling it if the license is pulled? I could understand not being allowed to sell them on a new version of TBA, but Farsight should be protected to sell all the tables they were licensed for on the current version of TBA infinitely. Farsight should not have ever signed anything that said they could no longer sell previously licensed tables on the same game. A video game is not a physical table. It is lines of code and images. If it were my company, I would keep the physical table code (which Farsight owns, cuz they wrote it), make new art, new sound, and recode the core gameplay code myself, with just enough differences to not infringe, then release them as Farsight tables, and tell Williams to go suck an egg.

This is sort of the new digital reality though, isn't it? I mean movies get yanked off digital platforms and lockers because the hosting site no longer pays for the license, and it's probably why a competing company buys the license for themselves. Zen had the South Park license and a FIFA license, but no longer can sell the South Park tables or Super League Football because those licenses expired. In the case of South Park, it went to UbiSoft I believe who probably bought exclusive digital licensing for a set amount of time. Arcooda is still able to 'sell' the TPA pack they had FarSight do because they bought a bunch of those specifically to pre-install into their cabinets. So like physical media, it can be sold until it sells out, then it is no more. What would have been truly odd is if FarSight had to pull the tables out of the game completely, which they didn't.

As to your idea about new art, sound, etc, they essentially did that for their Pinball Tournaments app, where they reskinned Fireball and changed a few rules. That can still be downloaded today.

 

[1adam12]

I don't know what ever became of it, but at one point Farsight reskinned Haunted House with a Ghostbusters theme. I imagine that disappeared when they got to publish the real deal.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

 

[shutyertrap]

What is happening in the digital sphere would be like Williams licensing Bob to build their physical tables to use in his arcade, so that people can come in and BUY gameplay on them every day, then revoking Bob's license, saying Bob can no longer allow new arcade goers to see these machines or pay to play on them. Bob would have to hide them in a secret room where only customers who have seen them and paid to play them in the past could access that room.

A pinball speak-easy? Sounds like fun! Who's knows the password?

Licensing laws are in place to protect the license holder. This wasn't an issue pre-digitital, in that physical items have a shelf life and then disappear for new physical items. Digital, well it can theoretically last forever. Back before EA made their deal with the NFL to ensure only Madden Football could be sold, there were a few NFL licensed titles. The EA deal happened, those companies no longer made NFL titles. The physical copies could still be found on store shelves, until stock ran out. Sometimes a license holder will actually pay to have remaining stock pulled from shelves entirely, as has been seen in the toy world.

Thing is, we are now as consumers of the mind set that digital is forever, and you should be able to buy it at anytime now and forever because hey, it's not like it's taking up shelf space. It's zeros and ones with the push of a button. To a license holder though, that means their IP would continue to get diluted with every new deal they strike, which in turn would mean they'd have to lower the price for each and every future license buyer. Zen buying the rights to the Williams license and hoping to turn a profit with that purchase would be severely hampered if FarSight was still able to sell their entire catalog of titles. As it was, they felt they were taking a huge risk spending the money because they did not know whether a) the TPA audience would be willing to double dip, and b) whether the Zen audience would want to purchase fuddy duddy real tables. It's a gamble that payed off, would it have if FarSight could still sell all those tables to new customers too?

There is also the question of exclusivity. After a period of time having the market to themselves, it is possible that FarSight could sign a side license that would allow them to sell those tables once more, just not build new ones. Again this would play into the license holder's favor. I just saw that Ms Splosion Man was put out on the Switch, and that was an Xbox developed exclusive. Cuphead likewise appears to be heading to the Switch. Tomb Raider had an entire year of exclusivity on the Xbox before coming to the PS4. Companies pay a premium to be the only kid on the block with the new toy, but eventually that market gets tapped out. Do I think it's likely FarSight would do this if offered? Nope. Just that in the world of licensing, that can exist.