Some thoughts on multiple platforms and POSSIBLE flipper lag solution

[smooverr]

Hi All,

I'm a first time poster so go easy on me! This is going to be long And just to preface this I have an 360, a PS3, and an iPad.

So first let me say I'm a HUGE video pinball fan. I got my start with Pinbot on the NES, migrated to PC (Epic Pinball, Pinball Dreams, etc..) and the I found Pinball FX2(Zen) for 360. I've been playing FX2 hardcore for over a year now, and it has pretty much been the only game I've played (with a few minor diversions) since. I've never really played much real pinball, at least not since I was a kid as arcades have all but disappeared from everywhere near Toronto. I managed to find a machine based on "24" in a Cineplex that had a busted flipper about a year ago, so no luck there.

Once I read about TPA I decided to give the demo a shot on the PS3. I wanted to download it for PS3 as my best friend (who only has a PS) just got into Zen after a year of badgering him to download it, and now he's hooked. I can't realistically re purchase the 30+ tables I have on my 360, but I did buy Zen a few months ago just to pick up the tables that aren't available on 360. So now we were both considering picking up TPA for the PS3 so we could compete for scores.

This is where my problems started.

So I downloaded the demo and after a few games I decided the physics weren't for me. I LOVE the recreations as I've never had the chance to play them, and there is just something "better" about playing an actual table. I read alot of forum posts around the net (here included) about the supposed "flipper lag" on the PS3. So I downloaded the demo for 360 and voila! No lag. Now I was still determined to see if I could do anything to get the PS3 version to "feel" like the 360. So I turned on my tv's game mode (50" Samsung Plasma). I immediately noticed an improvement with the PS3 version, but something still didn't feel right. So I flipped to the 360 and tried it with the game mode and it felt MUCH better, but still not right. I blame alot of it on being used to Zen's physics. I realize those are not realistic, but after a year of ONLY playing their game, it was a VERY hard transition.

(if you're still reading this, hat's off to you!)

Then I read about a pinball cafe that just opened about 15 mins from my house so I decided to go and check it out to see if maybe the physics in TPA were as realistic as they claim and I was crazy for not liking them as much as Zens'. After about 2.5 hours of playing real tables (MM, Pinbot, NBA (Stern), X-Men (Stern), and Tales from the Crypt (awesome tables!) I immediately came home and fired up TPA on my 360 (With game mode enabled) to see if it was accurate. And to my genuine surprise it WAS!! Right down to the way the ball kind of skids/mini bounces down the paddles

Now after spending alot of time with the game on both platforms here are the conclusions I've drawn re: their differences...and I realize some of this can be attributed to different cables.

The PS3 has better modelling, textures, colour saturation and lighting ie. the tables look closer to their real life counterparts that the 360's more arcadey look. More up to date DLC (thanks MS!) and a best friend on board.

The 360 has a fuller sound quality and a FAR better flipper feel. Before using game mode I was able to complete Monster mash in MB and my highscore was 225M. After turning it on I was able to beat the table (monsters of rock) in one ball amd score 775M on my FIRST try.

Now I still want to get this for the PS3. So I tried messing around with the PS3 and found that if I turned OFF the controllers vibration function somehow it just...felt...better. It FEELS like the lag disappeared. Has anyone else tried this and experienced the same thing? It's still not on par with the 360 but far better IMHO. I really want to pick up pack #4 and be on time when the licensed tables start rolling in so I'm struggling.

At the end of the day, gameplay trumps everything, and for my dollar, it just feels so much better on the 360. Are there any patches forthcoming from Farsight re the lag issue? (I realize this is a hotly debated issue so please no flaming, these are my findings). If so I will hold off on buying any more packs on the 360 and get the PS3 version. I just don't want to lose the vibration function, I can't explain it but it feels odd playing without it now (thank you Zen) even though there is no such vibration on a real machine.

I want to give Farsight my money, but the inconsistencies between the platforms is driving me nuts. Any thoughts from you guys? Oh and if anyone is currently active and on 360 drop your tag and I'll add you!

Cheers and happy high score hunting!

 

[smooverr]

Hey Crush3d_Turtle, I got your PM but I can't send you one back, says your box is full. So to reply..

Sadly it's gone Only the one place I mentioned that has more than one table in the entire city! No arcades left here

 

[Crush3d_Turtle]

Thanks for the reply, my inbox is now cleared. That is a real shame that the Union Station arcade is gone as I remember they had some pretty decent tables with Red & Ted's Road Show sticking out the most in my memory.

 

[smooverr]

Yeah it really was impossible to find anywere that had tables! But at least they opened the one spot. 7 tables isn't a TON, but better than nothing!

 

[Jeff Strong]

Hey smooverr, welcome to the forum, man. Great first post. Very interesting about turning the controller vibration off. I know the last update cured the flipper lag for many, but it does still remain for some. In addition to enabling Game Mode, just curious if you also tried disabling any gamma/level correction or other extras (basically anything that adds additional processing) on your TV ? I remember that helped a bit for a couple guys. Also, not sure if you're running at 1080p, but if so have you tried dropping to 720p? That seems to help as well....I hope something works out for you soon.

 

[Bonzo]

Welcome to the fold, smooverr.

 

[smooverr]

Hey smooverr, welcome to the forum, man. Great first post. Very interesting about turning the controller vibration off. I know the last update cured the flipper lag for many, but it does still remain for some. In addition to enabling Game Mode, just curious if you also tried disabling any gamma/level correction or other extras (basically anything that adds additional processing) on your TV ? I remember that helped a bit for a couple guys. Also, not sure if you're running at 1080p, but if so have you tried dropping to 720p? That seems to help as well....I hope something works out for you soon.

Hey Jeff thanks for the advice. I already have my gamma at 0, but switching to 720p actually did help! Unfortunately it still doesn't feel as good as the 360 for me. I still noticed a SLIGHT delay and turning off vibration still made it feel better.

 

[smooverr]

Welcome to the fold, smooverr.

Thanks! This is where I belong Nice to find some pinball fans out there, not too many of us left...

 

[BonzoGonzo]

hey, have fun here (and with pinball offcourse)

 

[shutyertrap]

smooverr, how much of this 'not feeling as good' is just splitting hairs? Cause I'll tell ya, just like you got used to Zen and played it for a year, you're gonna get used to TPA on whatever format you choose. Now this is easy for me to say since I don't (as far as I can tell) suffer from lag cause I'm on a CRT rear projection TV, but if I had to choose between playing with my friend and having a slight 'off' feeling versus playing in alone, I'm picking the friend. So long as you feel whatever lag you are feeling isn't making the table unplayable, you're gonna get used to it and compensate for it subconsciously, and you'll have a good friend to compete against to boot.

 

[smooverr]

That's a very good point. And trust me I've considered that, its really the only reason I made this post. With FX2 it never felt like it was lagging. I only noticed my aim was more consistent with game mode, but it always felt like it was supposed to. And tbh, I don't notice a difference in FX2 as far as gameplay after enabling game mode. But in TPA my aim is always way off. And usually it goes wide which would denote the lag. If the ball is rolling down the right flipper and I want to make a centre shot it always goes far more left. I can't explain it but it always feels like when I make a shot it was luck. But when I play it on my 360 it goes where I tells it to go! I just tripled up my HS on TOM from 1.6B to 4.8B and have the highest score for the week. I can barely hit 100M on the PS3. The other factor is even to get it feeling "close" I have to 1) switch on game mode (I keep it on for 360, but off for blu ray watching on the PS3) 2) switch the PS3 to 720p 3) turn off vibration. That's 2 too many hoops to jump through for it to still not feel as good as on the 360.

Since they aren't realeasing any DLC for god knows how long, it isn't a pressing issue right now. I wouldn't mind spending the $25 to get the tables I already have again for PS, so if they patch it any further I guess I'll revisit then. Unless anyone has anything else I can try?

EDIT : The other thing on the PS I don't like is the dual stage flippers. With the lag its nearly impossible to line up a shot. Funhouse immediatlely jumps out as an offender. Trying to hit Rudy with the delay AND double stage flippers is just insane.

 

[smooverr]

hey, have fun here (and with pinball offcourse)

Thanks dude.

Those are some nice scores! What's your GT? Would be nice to have some to chase

 

[smooverr]

Ok so I tried something else after playing the 360 version alot today. I tried the PS3, on game mode, with no vibration, at 1080p and it felt absolutely fine to me. I didn't notice a dropoff. So to be fair, I went back to 360 to double check and test the findings. To my shock I didn't notice any discernable difference. If anything, I found that the PS3 had slightly better ball physics, and without vibration , the 360 felt a little "glassier". So, now this all hinges on what their DLC plans are ))

 

[Mark W**a]

Most people say the 360 version looks better. This is the first I've heard the opposite.

Flipper feel is one of the things that TPA get's wrong. Actually it's one of the things that ALL pinball video games thus far have gotten wrong. You can't do cradle seperations, period. Live catches, taps, etc. You can't do alot of things that you can do on real pinball. It's because no matter how fast you flip the triggers, the flipper itself makes a complete motion... whereas on real pinball, you have an entire range of motion to play with the flippers...hard to really describe, unless you had a real pinball machine and a console next to it so I could literally show you what I mean.

If the team really sat down and paid as much attention to how real flippers work as they do the ball physics engine, I think they could nail this true pinball feel. That would be another big milestone because as I've said there has never been a pinball sim, ever, to get this right.

As for all the praise Zen/FX2 gets, I have no idea why. The flipper and ball physics are passable, sure, but a big step down from TPA IMO. The table design for the most part, are a joke compared to the best of real pinball, as are the rulesets, and the production values are wimpy. Which is to be expected, PBA machines these were thousand dollar machines and at the height of pinballs popularity, with incredible design teams and world renowned designers, amazing production values, you can't expect FX2 tables to compare. FX2 was fun when there was nothing better on the market but after playing a real pinball game like Midieval Madness for instance, going back to any Zen table you quickly realize how ****ty they really are.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Most people say the 360 version looks better. This is the first I've heard the opposite.

I've been saying the PS3 version looks better all along....and I'm not sure where you're getting the "most people say" thing from.

 

[smooverr]

@Mark I agree with you completely. You can't compare real pin to virtual. You would think they'd use the 2 stage flippers to at least give the kind of subtle control that would be needed for cradle separations etc...

Now comparing one pinball video to another, Zen just has the feel nailed completely right for video games. The flippers respond instantly to button pushes (even on my PS3) whereas I still cannot really decide on TPA's flippers on the PS3. Sometimes it feels great, but then I switch to the 360 and the paddles just feel perfect....my aim on the other hand, could use alot of work....

However, I'm finding that I do prefer the real tables. Mostly because of the production value that Zen is sorely lacking. And by that I mean, everything is a BIG DEAL on the real tables. An extra ball gets a game stopping DMD animation, as does multiball, usually accompanied with a huge light show and swelling music. On alot of the Zen tables, you simply get a flashing "Extra Ball" on the DMD and thats it. They've moved so far away from tables that resemble anything that's ever been done mechanically that they are starting to lose sight of the game. I still love their tables and buy everything they release, but there is a reason I find myself gravitating to TPA lately....

Graphically, I still think the PS3 wins hands down. Sharper, cleaner, better colours, and most importantly, WAY better lighting. Look at the lights on the back of the RBION table. They give off a glow on the PS3, whereas on the 360, the square just turns white. Yes the tables look darker on the PS3, but I prefer the look of a pinball table in a dark arcade over bright lights any day.

Now if they could incorporate lighting like in FP, we'd be set! Also, has anyone seen the lighting demo for Pro Pinball on iOS? The reflections look crazy! This is what TPA needs.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Graphically, I still think the PS3 wins hands down. Sharper, cleaner, better colours, and most importantly, WAY better lighting. Look at the lights on the back of the RBION table. They give off a glow on the PS3, whereas on the 360, the square just turns white. Yes the tables look darker on the PS3, but I prefer the look of a pinball table in a dark arcade over bright lights any day.

Agreed.

 

[Mark W**a]

I've been saying the PS3 version looks better all along....and I'm not sure where you're getting the "most people say" thing from.

Most people as in a majority of what I've read. I never read you saying this, I mean I'm only human I don't read every single post here. And even if I did, just cause you've said it, you're one person man no offense. People whose opinions I trust and whom have both versions have all told me the same thing, you are the first person that I sorta "know" in that respect, who has said otherwise.

And besides don't you remember we got into it over the lighting in Gofers, lol. So I think we have very different taste too, you prefer really dark whereas I like the bright, colorful iOS light scheme (though technically speaking, it's a downgrade from console lighting). I'm not saying you're "wrong", but if for instance PS3 is darker than you might prefer that whereas I don't.

At the end of the day I'm going to have to get PlayStation just to see for myself. I am a crazy expert on this, I know the inside and outs of both of these consoles, the strengths and weaknesses, what to expect and what to look for. So I'll be my own judge soon enough.

 

[Mark W**a]

@Mark I agree with you completely. You can't compare real pin to virtual. You would think they'd use the 2 stage flippers to at least give the kind of subtle control that would be needed for cradle separations etc...

Now comparing one pinball video to another, Zen just has the feel nailed completely right for video games. The flippers respond instantly to button pushes (even on my PS3) whereas I still cannot really decide on TPA's flippers on the PS3. Sometimes it feels great, but then I switch to the 360 and the paddles just feel perfect....my aim on the other hand, could use alot of work....

However, I'm finding that I do prefer the real tables. Mostly because of the production value that Zen is sorely lacking. And by that I mean, everything is a BIG DEAL on the real tables. An extra ball gets a game stopping DMD animation, as does multiball, usually accompanied with a huge light show and swelling music. On alot of the Zen tables, you simply get a flashing "Extra Ball" on the DMD and thats it. They've moved so far away from tables that resemble anything that's ever been done mechanically that they are starting to lose sight of the game. I still love their tables and buy everything they release, but there is a reason I find myself gravitating to TPA lately....

Graphically, I still think the PS3 wins hands down. Sharper, cleaner, better colours, and most importantly, WAY better lighting. Look at the lights on the back of the RBION table. They give off a glow on the PS3, whereas on the 360, the square just turns white. Yes the tables look darker on the PS3, but I prefer the look of a pinball table in a dark arcade over bright lights any day.

Now if they could incorporate lighting like in FP, we'd be set! Also, has anyone seen the lighting demo for Pro Pinball on iOS? The reflections look crazy! This is what TPA needs.

The bolded. Sounds like you haven't played the 360 version post patch.

I'm not saying either of you guys are wrong. It's just going by what I've read, what friends have told me, and plus, historically speaking, the PS3 is known to have added problems in multiformat games in general (things like jaggies, lower resolution, lower framerates, missing effects yadda yadda yadda compared to 360 in 95% of cases) and that especially rings true when the system isn't the lead platform for development, as is the case with PBA.

I'll know soon enough when I get the PS3, and be able to make my own judgements.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Most people as in a majority of what I've read. I never read you saying this, I mean I'm only human I don't read every single post here. And even if I did, just cause you've said it, you're one person man no offense. People whose opinions I trust and whom have both versions have all told me the same thing, you are the first person that I sorta "know" in that respect, who has said otherwise.

And besides don't you remember we got into it over the lighting in Gofers, lol. So I think we have very different taste too, you prefer really dark whereas I like the bright, colorful iOS light scheme (though technically speaking, it's a downgrade from console lighting). I'm not saying you're "wrong", but if for instance PS3 is darker than you might prefer that whereas I don't.

At the end of the day I'm going to have to get PlayStation just to see for myself. I am a crazy expert on this, I know the inside and outs of both of these consoles, the strengths and weaknesses, what to expect and what to look for. So I'll be my own judge soon enough.

Well, yes, I'm only one person, but I'm not the only one who has said this over the months. Even the FS guys have said that they aren't done improving the 360 lighting and they hope to bring it up to a similar level as the PS3. I know you weren't around when the 360 version came out, but a lot of people were very disappointed with the graphics, and yes they did get better with the optional update, but they still aren't up to the same level as the PS3 version. I'm not talking about dark vs. light....I'm talking about the quality of the lighting and graphics in general.

But as you said, you're a "crazy expert", so what do I know?

BTW, as far as dark vs. light goes, the majority seem to prefer darker lighting setting anyway:
http://digitalpinballfans.com/showt...refer-the-new-lighting-on-the-original-tables