What's still unclear though is the reason for such a retarded clause.
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- Thread starter kimkom
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What's still unclear though is the reason for such a retarded clause.
"Visual PinMAME".
Many years ago when VPM was the in thing, many manufacturers got REALLY worried about it - because emulation was having an impact on arcade games, and they didn't want to see the same thing happen to pins. (Remember, the goal of these machines is to make money). Sure, the emulation isn't perfect, but it was a significant worry.
It's why VPM implemented a 3 year rule back then (even going so far as encrypting the source code), and why Gottlieb DMCA'd all their ROMs off the 'net. I think at one time Stern or other manufacturer also withdrew all their downloads - forcing operators to have to purchase software updates only through authorized resellers - you were not allowed to download them anymore.
Sumez
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- Nov 19, 2012
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If anything Pinmame/Visual Pinball only makes me want to play a table more!
And obviously VP never plays perfectly, or even anywhere close to as well as the TPA tables do.
In fact, I have yet to play a VP table that feels even somewhat similar to the real table in terms of making the correct shots. Not only is backhanding nearly impossible (balls tend to fly off the flippers in a highly unrealistic direction), but the number of shots you can make from a trapped ball seem extremely limited. I think the most playable VP table I've encountered so far has been World Cup Soccer, where all the required shots are actually makable, and only the shots that are supposed to be difficult are that.
(so if anyone can point out a VP table that actually plays well, let me know!!)
Even with TPA's much, much better simulations, all you get is a desire to play the real thing. It's so weird to read Worf's statement above this post, that companies were worried about emulation killing real pinball, but I guess, better safe than sorry? At least Stern are recognizing that virtual pinball, ie. TPA, is actually helping boost their sales! I thinkt that is really good news.
And obviously VP never plays perfectly, or even anywhere close to as well as the TPA tables do.
In fact, I have yet to play a VP table that feels even somewhat similar to the real table in terms of making the correct shots. Not only is backhanding nearly impossible (balls tend to fly off the flippers in a highly unrealistic direction), but the number of shots you can make from a trapped ball seem extremely limited. I think the most playable VP table I've encountered so far has been World Cup Soccer, where all the required shots are actually makable, and only the shots that are supposed to be difficult are that.
(so if anyone can point out a VP table that actually plays well, let me know!!)
Even with TPA's much, much better simulations, all you get is a desire to play the real thing. It's so weird to read Worf's statement above this post, that companies were worried about emulation killing real pinball, but I guess, better safe than sorry? At least Stern are recognizing that virtual pinball, ie. TPA, is actually helping boost their sales! I thinkt that is really good news.
VPM is a prime example of a software based on using illegally distributed ROMs, yet it is nothing but contributing to the pinball community and indirectly to the producers as well. Name me one example of a negative effect of VPM (for any side) and we can start a discussion.
Well, technically, VPM means less quarters for operators because if you're learning the rules on VPM, you're not plugging quarters in the table learning them that way 
.
But yes, VPM was a huge issue for manufacturers and operators - they really got worried. If you know Future Pinball, you'd know it was actually derived from Visual Pinball (the original author of VP had to do his national service, so another guy was put in charge for VP maintenance, and he created Future Pinball from it). One of Future Pinball's notable differences from VP was that it did NOT support COM objects, which prevent VPM from running.
Because this was the period (early 00's) where pinball was on the notable decline - Williams had pulled out, and the others were pulling out except Stern. Gottlieb sent DMCA requests to remove all their ROMs from the 'net (you CANNOT find any Gottlieb ROMs online anymore) and others were pulling downloads (I think Williams did at one point as well).
It's why VPM actually ended up (for a time) added a 3 year rule where no game newer than 3 years old would run under VPM (but work fine on PinMAME). Also why VPM had an encrypted game support file to prevent people from compiling their own version (which pulled in a LOT of comments w.r.t. GPL and other open-source issues).
Around 2010 this was reversed - the maintainer of (V)PinMAME (after sellenoff - yes our Steve Ellenoff of FarSight left for FarSight on a "secret project" that I think was PHoF and later TPA) decrypted the files, mostly because the community had died down.
Whether it was positive or negative remains to be seen. But you can bet a lot of the licensing concerns fell from that. Of course, I would say it was positive, because it kept the old pins alive.
Edit: Technically the ROMs weren't illegally downloaded - in the early days we just downloaded them straight from the company's website. They were freely available. The use was technically illegal, though, but they were offering them up for free download.
Edit2: I still have WPCMAME from ages ago somewhere on my hard drive (the one that originally supported only TZ and IJ). I sometimes wonder how much of the original WPC/PinMAME team ended up at FarSight, as well as how many of the old community (Shiva, you around?) ended up there as well. Or if the developer of VP/FP ended up there as well.
.But yes, VPM was a huge issue for manufacturers and operators - they really got worried. If you know Future Pinball, you'd know it was actually derived from Visual Pinball (the original author of VP had to do his national service, so another guy was put in charge for VP maintenance, and he created Future Pinball from it). One of Future Pinball's notable differences from VP was that it did NOT support COM objects, which prevent VPM from running.
Because this was the period (early 00's) where pinball was on the notable decline - Williams had pulled out, and the others were pulling out except Stern. Gottlieb sent DMCA requests to remove all their ROMs from the 'net (you CANNOT find any Gottlieb ROMs online anymore) and others were pulling downloads (I think Williams did at one point as well).
It's why VPM actually ended up (for a time) added a 3 year rule where no game newer than 3 years old would run under VPM (but work fine on PinMAME). Also why VPM had an encrypted game support file to prevent people from compiling their own version (which pulled in a LOT of comments w.r.t. GPL and other open-source issues).
Around 2010 this was reversed - the maintainer of (V)PinMAME (after sellenoff - yes our Steve Ellenoff of FarSight left for FarSight on a "secret project" that I think was PHoF and later TPA) decrypted the files, mostly because the community had died down.
Whether it was positive or negative remains to be seen. But you can bet a lot of the licensing concerns fell from that. Of course, I would say it was positive, because it kept the old pins alive.
Edit: Technically the ROMs weren't illegally downloaded - in the early days we just downloaded them straight from the company's website. They were freely available. The use was technically illegal, though, but they were offering them up for free download.
Edit2: I still have WPCMAME from ages ago somewhere on my hard drive (the one that originally supported only TZ and IJ). I sometimes wonder how much of the original WPC/PinMAME team ended up at FarSight, as well as how many of the old community (Shiva, you around?) ended up there as well. Or if the developer of VP/FP ended up there as well.
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Sumez
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- Nov 19, 2012
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Well, technically, VPM means less quarters for operators because if you're learning the rules on VPM, you're not plugging quarters in the table learning them that way
I don't think you'd disagree here, but anyway:
1. People who dig the table enough to download a simulated virtual version, is eventually gonna be a "problem" either way.
2. You can learn the rules by reading a rule sheet too, you don't learn the physical table by anything other than playing the physical table. I learned the rules for TOTAN inside out through TPA, but still can't last more than a few minutes on the real thing, so it's not helping me.
3. The people who play for long aren't the people who know the rules, but those who DID spend a lot of quarters to learn playing a physical table. These people will usually be able to take their skills to an entirely new table they never saw before, and play well enough to get replays there as well.
4. Even if the people who play for long don't spend as many quarters compared to the time they spend, they are probably likely to come back more often than casual players, and even generate more interest for the table in question.
I won't get into the subject of adjusting (both automatically and manually) the replay score, cause that goes without saying.
In conclusion, I still don't think you can argue that VPinMame isn't a win/win situation. And I'm the guy who's really against every other kind of software piracy. (which it wasn't really when the companies, like you said, made the roms available on their websites)
Hey, I can all I say is that's what happened years ago. Though, I'm pretty sure the operators would still rather you explore the table by plugging a quarter in - to them, every time you hit start on VP or whatever, it's 50 cents out of their pocket.
And hey, they probably did see a drop off - people who would've played the real table played it a lot less often once they had VP. I certainly did as VP satisfied my MM itch more often than not so I wouldn't have to spend so much on the real thing. And yes, I did "mod" the table to be easier so I could explore the more advanced modes more easily - stuff that I probably would have had to dump $100 in quarters to reach, but just wanted to see. Yes, I'd count myself as casual.
Anyhow, like I said, it was a very real worry. Did it pan out? I can't really tell you - other than the arcade closed a few years after I left (around the height of the VP craze).
I think with TPA, they still have memories of VP, haunting memories, so...
And hey, they probably did see a drop off - people who would've played the real table played it a lot less often once they had VP. I certainly did as VP satisfied my MM itch more often than not so I wouldn't have to spend so much on the real thing. And yes, I did "mod" the table to be easier so I could explore the more advanced modes more easily - stuff that I probably would have had to dump $100 in quarters to reach, but just wanted to see. Yes, I'd count myself as casual.
Anyhow, like I said, it was a very real worry. Did it pan out? I can't really tell you - other than the arcade closed a few years after I left (around the height of the VP craze).
I think with TPA, they still have memories of VP, haunting memories, so...