Bobby said in an interview that they deliberately make the tables easier so average (i.e. unskilled, crappy) players can reach the wizard modes. Personally, I think they should make them as true to life as possible, so no matter how frustrating it is, they should keep it that way. Let them reach it the old-fashioned way - improving their skill until they can reach it. At the very least, give us the option to turn "easy mode" off.
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Welcome Back to Digital Pinball Fans - please read this first
360 - Request Stop making the tables easier!
- Thread starter Richard B
- Start date
Carl Spiby
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- Feb 28, 2012
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I think it just means that specials award extra balls by making it easier, there's tournament mode coming anyway at some point which will address that.
- Mar 17, 2012
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As best I can tell - and I have access to physical versions of 10 of the 16 released tables - TPA's tables use the factory default settings, except for specials being turned into extra balls.
There are three primary factors that make TPA easier than physical pinball:
What I believe Bobby was referring to in his interview with WGN is that even after the above all happens, the collision meshes receive additional tuning to make shots even more forgiving. I still have no problem with this, especially on mobile devices where fine control is problematic.
While I understand and to some degree sympathize with your position, the other part of me sees things like Atlantis (which it took me four months to reach in TPA, and I'm not an "unskilled, crappy" player) and Battle for the Kingdom and realizes that even at TPA's current reduced difficulty, probably 95% of players will never see those modes, and so they're going to miss out on part of the table's experience. Pinball scores are not evenly distributed; for every player who scores 900M on TZ, there are 20 or so who would find 90M a major accomplishment. While I'm not saying everyone has a divine right to reach the wizard mode, I don't think it's realistic - or good for FarSight's business model - to expect players to put in the same amount of time and effort to reach a wizard mode on a TPA table that they would need to reach it on the physical table.
If FarSight can easily give players the option to disable the additional tuning and play with collision meshes that are as faithful to the real table as technology will allow, that's fine. But I don't think that it should be something that is forced on all players. (Remember the outcry raised when CV's outlanes went from sedate to voracious?)
There are three primary factors that make TPA easier than physical pinball:
- The collision meshes are by necessity only approximations of the actual tables - not every single tiny nook and cranny is reproduced, in order to keep the physics calculations under control - which in turn makes marginal shots slightly less likely to be rejected. You also get less weird unexpected ricochets from hitting a projecting part of a table element.
- The physics are nearly 100% deterministic. Once you learn how a ball leaves a kickout on TPA, it almost never changes. That predictability makes things much easier. The Slot Machine kickout on TZ will be a good test - even on a well-maintained machine, it often changes mid-game, to the point where your dead-pass that worked the previous 10 kickouts suddenly becomes an instant center drain instead.
- It is inherently easier to nudge using a controller/phone/tablet than it is to properly manipulate 125 kilograms of pinball table.
What I believe Bobby was referring to in his interview with WGN is that even after the above all happens, the collision meshes receive additional tuning to make shots even more forgiving. I still have no problem with this, especially on mobile devices where fine control is problematic.
While I understand and to some degree sympathize with your position, the other part of me sees things like Atlantis (which it took me four months to reach in TPA, and I'm not an "unskilled, crappy" player) and Battle for the Kingdom and realizes that even at TPA's current reduced difficulty, probably 95% of players will never see those modes, and so they're going to miss out on part of the table's experience. Pinball scores are not evenly distributed; for every player who scores 900M on TZ, there are 20 or so who would find 90M a major accomplishment. While I'm not saying everyone has a divine right to reach the wizard mode, I don't think it's realistic - or good for FarSight's business model - to expect players to put in the same amount of time and effort to reach a wizard mode on a TPA table that they would need to reach it on the physical table.
If FarSight can easily give players the option to disable the additional tuning and play with collision meshes that are as faithful to the real table as technology will allow, that's fine. But I don't think that it should be something that is forced on all players. (Remember the outcry raised when CV's outlanes went from sedate to voracious?)
DarkAkatosh
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- May 23, 2012
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Is it an actual tournament mode, or just FS hosting tournaments periodically? If its the latter, they might as well scrap the feature because I have yet to see a game where this feature was used to its fullest potential. Zen's tourneys are held once in a blue moon and there's no way to tell if there's a new tournament up unless you are a regular member on the Zen forums, or check the option in game every day faithfully.
- Mar 17, 2012
- 4,293
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I think both are still planned, but single-player tournament modes were asked about in the most recent batch of questions Bobby answered and the response was positive.
Animator_pin_fan
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- Mar 4, 2012
- 183
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You make some very good points Serenseven!
I just thought I'd mention that after playing a real Monster Bash, that many of the shots that I struggle with in TPA are actually much easier on the real machine. Which points to the two major flaws with TPA physics thus so far, which have been discussed before on other threads:
Randomness- on real pinball the ball is wild, but if TPA added a bit more randomness to kickouts and scoops, I believe it would seriously enhance the level of feeling like real pinball.
Flipper physics- on real pinball it's possible to perform many cool flipper techniques that just simply aren't possible with the current tuning of physics in TPA. Two stage flippers are a start, but I think we'll all be happy when they finally enable all of the more subtle flipper physics like simple taps for bouncing the ball off the tip. And how cool will it be once you can do live and dead catches.
With that said, I believe TPA can only be as realistic as the flipper physics will allow. Pinball is a game of skill, however, right now TPA is a game of predictability with handicapped flippers. I don't mean that to sound harsh or nit picky, but the core of playing pinball revolves around having great flipper control, and until they revamp the flipper physics entirely, TPA will only just be a pinball video game rather than a true pinball simulation.
I just thought I'd mention that after playing a real Monster Bash, that many of the shots that I struggle with in TPA are actually much easier on the real machine. Which points to the two major flaws with TPA physics thus so far, which have been discussed before on other threads:
Randomness- on real pinball the ball is wild, but if TPA added a bit more randomness to kickouts and scoops, I believe it would seriously enhance the level of feeling like real pinball.
Flipper physics- on real pinball it's possible to perform many cool flipper techniques that just simply aren't possible with the current tuning of physics in TPA. Two stage flippers are a start, but I think we'll all be happy when they finally enable all of the more subtle flipper physics like simple taps for bouncing the ball off the tip. And how cool will it be once you can do live and dead catches.
With that said, I believe TPA can only be as realistic as the flipper physics will allow. Pinball is a game of skill, however, right now TPA is a game of predictability with handicapped flippers. I don't mean that to sound harsh or nit picky, but the core of playing pinball revolves around having great flipper control, and until they revamp the flipper physics entirely, TPA will only just be a pinball video game rather than a true pinball simulation.
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Rudy
New member
- Sep 13, 2012
- 491
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There's also the biggie regarding physical tables; they can degrade whilst the digital versions cannot. Chances are there won't be a difference between making your first shot or three milllionth shot, whereas with real pinball you need to reconsider your entire gameplan if you find a table with some of its paint worn away.
This is something I can live without: just imagine going for your high score on Funhouse only for Rudy to break! You might find a broken controller too
This is something I can live without: just imagine going for your high score on Funhouse only for Rudy to break! You might find a broken controller too
Rudy Yagov
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- Mar 30, 2012
- 836
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One thing I noticed is that the ball only has to touch standup targets ("spot targets" in game) in order to trigger them. On a real machine, the ball has to use a bit of force to make the contacts on the switch connect.
David Smith
New member
- Feb 28, 2012
- 127
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This is true. Moreover, on a real table spot targets will only trigger with force on the *face* of the target, whereas on TPA a graze of the target from *behind* can trigger the target. This makes some games a bit easier. Examples: hitting Troll targets on MM when rolling out of the castle gate; lighting Hocus Pocus on TOM coming out of the left orbit; spotting KICK by grazing the upper spot after rolling off the upper flipper.
OTOH very strong hits on the face of standup targets sometimes don't register when they would on a real table. MM's Troll targets are frequent culprits. If the Clock target on TZ suffers the same issue it will be very frustrating...
- Mar 17, 2012
- 4,293
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Not universally true. A light graze is enough to drop the F-A-R-T targets on the local Family Guy here.
A very strong hit to the Clock target on TZ is an almost guaranteed center drain. I actually ignore the Clock rounds (except Clock 10 Millions from the Camera, which is enough points to be worth the risk) in single-ball play.
SKILL_SHOT
Banned
- Jul 11, 2012
- 3,659
- 1
In my manual for BIG GUNS there are settings from extra easy to extra hard and it has a chart showing the differences.
- Feb 19, 2012
- 8,144
- 2
Farsight just posted this comment on their FB page:
"Actually, our game is a little easier to play than some of the real tables, as requested and endorsed by Roger Sharpe."
https://www.facebook.com/pinballarcade/posts/244610725662429
"Actually, our game is a little easier to play than some of the real tables, as requested and endorsed by Roger Sharpe."
https://www.facebook.com/pinballarcade/posts/244610725662429
- Mar 17, 2012
- 4,293
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While I certainly respect the opinion of Roger Sharpe (and Josh and Zach, for that matter) in all things pinball, I can't help but wonder what his motivation was for making that request.
SKILL_SHOT
Banned
- Jul 11, 2012
- 3,659
- 1
Probably make it more appealing to the masses who've never played real pinball and so the player could see more of the tables features.
- Feb 19, 2012
- 8,144
- 2
My only complaint is that the game times are longer than real life. Yes, part of that is due to the extra balls/specials (especially on Ripley's for example), but some of it has to do with certain shots being easier than they are on the real machines. BOP is a prime example. It's significantly harder to complete the Metamorphosis and join the Billionaire's Club in real life. I don't think we wold be complaining about the unbalanced scoring as much if the shots were closer to the same difficulty as the real BOP.
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brakel
New member
- Apr 27, 2012
- 2,305
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It does make some amount of sense to make the video game versions of the tables a little easier. The difficulty of real pinball tables always had to be weighted so that the typical table would get so many plays per hour. Too easy and it wouldn't get enough plays because someone was racking up too many extra balls and/or games. Too hard and no one would want to play it again. The other part of too easy in an arcade setting is that you always want them to come back to try to get that one elusive goal that they haven't quite mastered and then if they master that one you want a few more. This wanting to go back to get another shot at completing "X" goal was what gave good pinball tables their longevity. People might master various aspects of the table but they haven't gotten that one magical game where it all comes together. Too easy of a table and the master pinballer would complete all the goals and then move on.
If you take this one step further you can say that the perfect pinball table was never made because there were always compromises made for the sake of keeping the table profitable. So when a video game simulation is made should it be made to the specifications of the original creator (or as close to that as we can surmise) or should it be made to the specifications of the arcade owner? Some of this covered in the operator's menu. Some are done with after market mods to outlanes and posts and what not.
Having said that, a home or mobile game where no one makes money on multiple replays should really have a difficulty slider or access to control those things that make them easier or harder.
If you take this one step further you can say that the perfect pinball table was never made because there were always compromises made for the sake of keeping the table profitable. So when a video game simulation is made should it be made to the specifications of the original creator (or as close to that as we can surmise) or should it be made to the specifications of the arcade owner? Some of this covered in the operator's menu. Some are done with after market mods to outlanes and posts and what not.
Having said that, a home or mobile game where no one makes money on multiple replays should really have a difficulty slider or access to control those things that make them easier or harder.
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- Feb 19, 2012
- 8,144
- 2
I see what you mean, Brakel. I just don't like when any game is watered down. It's my biggest pet peeve with the video game industry as a whole. At least give us options to make it harder and more realistic. I think the single player tournament mode should help with that, at least in some ways, although probably not with physics and shot difficulty.
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