360 - Request Stop making the tables easier!

[Jeff Strong]

Who is this Roger Sharpe guy, and why do his opinions/requests carry so much weight?

http://pinball.wikia.com/wiki/Roger_Sharpe

http://pinwiki.org/wiki/Roger_Sharpe

 

[David Pannozzo]

I love Pinball a lot, but i'm no Damn good at it. Even with the games on easy I can't keep them on the playfied, some of the newer ones I can but give me a EM and it's automatic drain for me. Sorry but I like the games on here because they are a little bit easier too play, especially on long road trips with my Vita. I also want all of you to play pinball the way it should be, so yes they should give us players the option to make it hard or easy. Who knows with all the practice and gaining skill, when I get good I can play it on hard. Then when I someday get really good I can join the PAPA someday who knows, I really don't need it on easy too much just give me the option too have 10 balls instead of 3 so I can practice. That's where the operators menu will come in on Twilight Zone and Star Trek: The next generation. I'm sorry that I like easy but I have a hard time nudging those balls, I always seem to Tilt the games, but option is really good, Thanks for listening.

 

[Rudy]

If only it were possible to wipe achievements so that people who claim that the game is "too easy" will forever be without the wizard goals in Ripley's Believe it or Not >

I mean, I've played the game since the week it came out but I've never been able to get more than 4 Ripley letters (and my average is about 1-2), I can understand you guys getting a little frustrated about the game being too easy, but it's still too hard for the majority of players. Right now IS about the best combination of easy and hard, with the game being a little bit lenient to counter the fact that most pinball games were made to be easy drains.

We're getting a tournament mode eventually, so it'll be a lot harder for you to get extra balls (if you can get any extra balls, I don't know anything about it tbh) so games WILL be shorter and definitely trickier to get wizard goals/high scores. But getting that AND wanting the core game made harder? That's just overkill. You might like a Nintendo hard game because you can just about beat it, but for the rest of us who can't... it's just another added level of frustration. A level of frustration that might just be enough to go "That's it, I quit completely!"

It's a two way system: You may say that it's bad that TPA caters for 'casual' pinball fans because the tables aren't as authentic, whereas I could just as easily counter and say that if TPA was just as cheap and unforgiving to newcomers as real pinball tables then we wouldn't have The Twilight Zone or Star Trek:TNG as confirmed tables. Ok, maybe we'd have had The Twilight Zone but reduced backers from the original Kickstarter and the ST:TNG one would have turned the 'creeping over the line' total into an impossible ask. The failure of the ST:TNG kickstarter would have proved that future kickstarter projects might not have been sustainable (calming the optimism for future tables) and as a result we'd have singlehandedly managed to shoot TPA in the head with our own elitism.

And if the game is 'too easy' then why aren't you in the Leaderboard Top 10? And if you are, why aren't you aiming for No#1? Everyone has exactly the same 'handicap' and I can only think of Monster Bash where there's a clear gamebreaking score bug.

Basically I think it boils down to some people who will never be satisfied with any digital pinball game because they're romanticising over nostalgia, they're generally satisfied but say "It could do with some tweaking" because it doesn't feel exactly like a pinball table. It's never going to feel exactly like a pinball table because it's a digital recreation of a pinball table, and it could be 10-20 years until someone creates a gravity based engine that caters to every single pinball table anomaly. So far this is the best there is, and little tweak after little tweak will not only never satisfy anyone, but it'll make it impossible to ever 'learn' how to use the games physics if it keeps changing. Fixing bugs? Yes. Improving the flippers? Yes. Making it harder without giving any real consideration as to what would happen if it was made harder? No!

 

[Jeff Strong]

I'm not really complaining that it's "too easy". I just want it to be as realistic as possible, and I'll be the first to admit that I'm not that great of a player (I've never completed Ripley's either), but I like the challenge to be similar to real pinball...although, like I said, my only real complaint (if i can even call it that), is that the game times run longer than real pins (my old hands get too tired, lol), but the tournament mode should take care of that.

I do wish some of the shots were more realistic too (especially BOP), but it's still fun as it is. I'm just very thankful they haven't gone the Zen route by watering EVERYTHING down.

Overall, Farsight's doing a fantastic job. Of course it's not perfect, but it's getting better all the time and I'm excited about the future.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

If only it were possible to wipe achievements so that people who claim that the game is "too easy" will forever be without the wizard goals in Ripley's Believe it or Not >

I mean, I've played the game since the week it came out but I've never been able to get more than 4 Ripley letters (and my average is about 1-2), I can understand you guys getting a little frustrated about the game being too easy, but it's still too hard for the majority of players. Right now IS about the best combination of easy and hard, with the game being a little bit lenient to counter the fact that most pinball games were made to be easy drains.

On Atlantis, just keep at it, I was stuck at 5 letters for months, and then it all came together in one glorious game. Regarding the current difficulty, I agree - until it becomes adjustable through operator's menus, tournament modes, etc., it's about right where it is now.

We're getting a tournament mode eventually, so it'll be a lot harder for you to get extra balls (if you can get any extra balls, I don't know anything about it tbh) so games WILL be shorter and definitely trickier to get wizard goals/high scores. But getting that AND wanting the core game made harder? That's just overkill. You might like a Nintendo hard game because you can just about beat it, but for the rest of us who can't... it's just another added level of frustration. A level of frustration that might just be enough to go "That's it, I quit completely!"

Tournament modes on most tables kill all extra balls and specials and replace them with point awards. And actually, when you play a table under tournament conditions, your focus is generally on avoiding risk at first. You take the safe modes, maybe you time out that ones that are hazardous and/or you don't like. You don't try to light the machine on fire at first; you try to "lay down a good foundation of points" as Cayle George would say. If you then find you're doing well, then you try to knock it out of the park by going after wizard modes, risky but lucrative shots, etc.

I want the main game kept slightly easier for a different reason: I play a lot of real pinball and experience the frustration of missing some goal by a few shots or playing a set of way-below-average games in league regularly. Sometimes it's good to be able to fire up TPA and not have to fight a table at its full power. Sometimes I've just come home from a bad day at the office and I just want to play a few games and feel like something went right today.

It's a two way system: You may say that it's bad that TPA caters for 'casual' pinball fans because the tables aren't as authentic, whereas I could just as easily counter and say that if TPA was just as cheap and unforgiving to newcomers as real pinball tables then we wouldn't have The Twilight Zone or Star Trek:TNG as confirmed tables. Ok, maybe we'd have had The Twilight Zone but reduced backers from the original Kickstarter and the ST:TNG one would have turned the 'creeping over the line' total into an impossible ask. The failure of the ST:TNG kickstarter would have proved that future kickstarter projects might not have been sustainable (calming the optimism for future tables) and as a result we'd have singlehandedly managed to shoot TPA in the head with our own elitism.

Now that I know the tables are tuned to reduce their difficulty, I have a feeling Twilight Zone might not turn out to be the monster I've made it out to be. Although I've not been exaggerating: the real one can be quite cruel. Even in a reduced-challenge state, TZ will still definitely rank among the hardest tables in TPA. But I agree on the whole elitism comment; I think sometimes we - myself included - forget that we're not very representative of TPA players generally, and that what is good for us might not be the right direction for TPA as a whole.

And if the game is 'too easy' then why aren't you in the Leaderboard Top 10? And if you are, why aren't you aiming for No#1? Everyone has exactly the same 'handicap' and I can only think of Monster Bash where there's a clear gamebreaking score bug.

Lack of time, mostly. That and I'm trying to improve my skill at real pinball currently, which is a lot harder and more time-consuming than improving one's skill at TPA.

And actually, even if it was "too easy", that would affect everyone, so the relative skill (and presumably rankings) of the players would theoretically be unchanged.

Basically I think it boils down to some people who will never be satisfied with any digital pinball game because they're romanticising over nostalgia, they're generally satisfied but say "It could do with some tweaking" because it doesn't feel exactly like a pinball table. It's never going to feel exactly like a pinball table because it's a digital recreation of a pinball table, and it could be 10-20 years until someone creates a gravity based engine that caters to every single pinball table anomaly. So far this is the best there is, and little tweak after little tweak will not only never satisfy anyone, but it'll make it impossible to ever 'learn' how to use the games physics if it keeps changing. Fixing bugs? Yes. Improving the flippers? Yes. Making it harder without giving any real consideration as to what would happen if it was made harder? No!

They've already got the major things mostly right. I'd say at least 98% of the time I am not at all surprised at what the virtual pinball is doing. There are some weird anomalies - the bizarre inlane acceleration in MM and HD, the collision issues with the flippers and table elements, and so forth - but most of the time things are as they should be. There are a few tweaks that need to happen still. We need better flipper physics, which will make the game easier. We also need a touch of randomization in kickouts and other physics to better mimic the slightly unpredictable elements of real tables, which will make the game harder. So the difficulty of TPA will vary over time as these tweaks are implemented. I think as long as we're headed in the direction of improved accuracy, even though we know it will never be 100% realistic, then I'm willing to give up some consistency and adjust to the changes along the way.

 

[Fungi]

Well, if my experience with CV is any indication, I'd rather it be easy. CV went from, One of My Favorite Tables, to, The Only Table I Don't Play, when it became more, finger quote, realistic, unfinger quote.

I imagine that if all the tables went the CV route, I'd pretty much be done with TPA.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Well, if my experience with CV is any indication, I'd rather it be easy. CV went from, One of My Favorite Tables, to, The Only Table I Don't Play, when it became more, finger quote, realistic, unfinger quote.

I knew you were going to say that as soon as I saw your name next to the latest reply for this thread

You guys make some good points. The more I think of it, I'm happy with the way things are and I think the tournament mode will do the trick for me.

 

[Fungi]

I knew you were going to say that as soon as I saw your name next to the latest reply for this thread

You guys make some good points. The more I think of it, I'm happy with the way things are and I think the tournament mode will do the trick for me.

Yeah well, throughout all the bugs and delays, CV is the only thing I'm unhappy with. If I'm to complain, it's all I got to complain about. Kind of a good thing I guess. Sorry sbout the one-note whine.


Edit: Come to think of it, I still don't like the scripted ball exit sequence when tapping the top of a slingshot. But that's where nudging comes in.

 

[Dan]

Too bad that FS from the beginning did not implement difficulty adjustments (no, not necessarily ROM op menu) instead of thinking how many platforms they can spread onto. Now they'll come up with this half-baked hybrid tournament. This is why I've started thinking of going back to Visual. I want my ass kicked in short, intense, focused matches, not "we've got all evening"-one game sessions. Sorry for ranting, but TPA was once so promising, now ...meh.

 

[shutyertrap]

The only table I've seen TPA actually make a shot easier, as in you can actually see it happen, is MM. Its the catapult shot, where I've seen multiple times the ball get right up near the entrance, and then magically get pulled through the wall into the catapult! Its on shots where the ball reaches the apex of going up but doesn't have quite enough to make it all the way to bounce into the lane. Normally it'd fall right back down to your flippers, but now and then the magical pin fairy takes over and frame jumps that ball into place. Kinda comical.

The other thing that amuses me with ANY virtual pinball, is we're getting new in box performance for these tables. I love that, cause I've never played a table myself that was 100% the way it should be. The flip side of that is when I do get to play a real table, I'm griping the entire time cause all I'm noticing are the flaws and wonky aspects! I was playing a LoTR table recently, and there were 2 balls trapped near the top because of a broken plastic. My first thought was, where's the 'call game attendant' button? Fortunately the owner of the place had keys to the table, so he cleared the balls, took out the broken piece, gave me 2 credits. Sweat! But then I had to deal with flippers that were at about 90% strength, a path of the dead that didn't light up at all (its supposed to, right?), and various other things. Not saying it wasn't fun, but we're spoiled by the digital perfection of TPA. Even with its flaws.

 

[Heretic]

Is this all about that off hand remark bobby king made? Id love a tournament mode i could switch to as a purely score based exercise rather than fun casual play

We all KNEW it wasnt the matrix, but saying it out loud seems to have ruffled some feathers.

What we do know is this are improving and will continue in the future

Im a pig in ****

 

[superballs]

I wish there was more of an arcade mode...maybe some part wear implemented (but could be reset to factory). I think that would be cool.

My only real complaint is some of the clipping issues and the flipper mechanics.
Honestly though, it's not like any of us have an advantage over another person as we all have to deal with the same bugs, physics and anomalies. Honestly, even the MB nudge bug, if it's THAT important for you to be on the high score list...all you have to do is explit it longer than anyone else who finds it THAT important and enjoy being on top until it's fixed.

As for the arcade mode. I think that would make things a bit closer to real playtime. Credits? Well they can be used for lots of things. Credits could be used as buy-ins for online tourneys. A few other suggestions: Credits are earned in free play and every time you earn one you can use it to "buy" a leaderboard shot using arcade or tourney rules, or the current ruleset. This would mean the leaderboard scores are indicative of average skill.

I think there is a lot of opportunity for small things to be really cool.

 

[Senor Herer]

As best I can tell - and I have access to physical versions of 10 of the 16 released tables - TPA's tables use the factory default settings, except for specials being turned into extra balls.

There are three primary factors that make TPA easier than physical pinball:
{snip}

Post nailed it.

I don't think the tables are too easy. I've had a top ten on XBLA on Ripley's and a top 100 on most of the rest so I'm no chump but I've still not nailed all the wizard modes on all the tables.

Digital pinball is always inherently going to be easier to master than real pinball. No matter how good the physics, it's still a closed system with no changes over time. No two pins play alike but all versions of TPA do, and TPA doesn't have things like wear and tear, worn rubbers, weakened flippers etc.

Also, a simulation is always going to be predictable to some degree. Once you can predict something you can exploit it, like the kickouts on most tables, and that's pretty much true of all games and all coin operated games in particular.

The real benefit of a closed system digital simulation is that scores are directly comparable to all players on that platform, which certainly isn't the case with real tables.

I think the difficulty of the tables so far is pitched just right. More please

 

[Matt McIrvin]

As best I can tell - and I have access to physical versions of 10 of the 16 released tables - TPA's tables use the factory default settings, except for specials being turned into extra balls.

Specials, and replay scores.

You're right on with the rest. I think the predictability of kickout bounces and the ease of nudging are the big ones.

Also: To me, the angles at which a ball comes off the flipper feel noticeably more discretized than on a real table, which can make it easier to hit scoops, ramps and orbits. I'm not sure if this is a pure numerical effect, or if Farsight is tweaking the possible exit angles by hand to make sure rounding error doesn't make it impossible to get a scoop shot.

 

[Stormchild]

As best I can tell - and I have access to physical versions of 10 of the 16 released tables - TPA's tables use the factory default settings, except for specials being turned into extra balls.

There are three primary factors that make TPA easier than physical pinball:

…[snip]…

Really interesting info, and I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis as well. I think FarSight has mostly made the right choices in tuning the physics and general playability of the tables.

Of the tables in TPA, the one I'm most familiar with in real life is Medieval Madness. I knew the game pretty well before I played it in TPA, and I can say it matches the difficulty of the real table closely enough that it's pretty much exactly like playing the real thing -- right down to the occasionally cruel fast return from the damsel ramp (which resulted in many drains on the real table; I do appreciate FarSight "fixing" this one, though), and failed peasant ramp returns going SDTM. I've been playing this one for months in TPA, and I still haven't reached the battle for the kingdom. On two occasions, I've come within one shot of taking out The King of Payne's castle, and both times I blew it.

There is one thing that's different about MM vs. the real table -- in TPA, the game remains in ideal condition, whereas the real table frequently had mechanical problems (such as the drawbridge not lowering, the gate not opening, castle not animating, etc.), to the point that there are actually settings in the operator's menu to compensate for mechanical failures (e.g. there's a setting that allows you to destroy castles by hitting the drawbridge or the gate a certain number of times, in the event that one of those two parts isn't working properly).

So at least in this one case, TPA is often *closer* to the intended gameplay than many of the actual tables…ironically enough!

I can't speak for the relative difficulty of the other TPA tables vs. their real-life counterparts, but I do think they nailed MM.

 

[Stormchild]

As for the predictability of the kickouts, this is something that has improved a little in recent updates.

The Monster Bash kickout used to start a very predictable sequence (which I described awhile ago in another post), but that one no longer occurs. What happens instead may well be just as predictable, but unlike the previous one, you can't just sit back and watch it anymore; you now have to be ready to return fire right away, or you'll certainly lose the ball down the center. I think that's a good enough solution for this one.

Then there are the FunHouse kickouts, which I think are reasonably unpredictable, at least some of the time. When the ball enters the kicker from the rear (the "lite steps" entrance), or drops down from the magic mirror entrance, you get the normal kickout that bounces the ball off the right flipper and over to the left. I rely on this for making shots with the left flipper, but you do have to be careful about it. There are a couple situations where the ball doesn't kick out the usual way -- one is during multiball, when two balls end up in the kicker (in this case, one of them flies out at a dangerous angle that often results in a drain), and the other one happens when the ball is returned quickly after firing it directly into the scoop (a different return path, slightly less dangerous but not reliable for a bounce pass).

And when Rudy spits out the ball (after you start multiball), there's a roughly 50/50 chance it'll end up bouncing over to the left outlane for an immediate drain. I'm in the habit of nudging the table just after he spits the ball to prevent that from happening, but the result is anything but predictable. The timing of the nudge makes all the difference, and sometimes I just end up making *sure* the ball will drain.

Apart from the brilliant design of the table itself, I think these factors are what make FunHouse one of my favorite tables in TPA.

 

[Stormchild]

Well, if my experience with CV is any indication, I'd rather it be easy. CV went from, One of My Favorite Tables, to, The Only Table I Don't Play, when it became more, finger quote, realistic, unfinger quote.

I imagine that if all the tables went the CV route, I'd pretty much be done with TPA.

I felt that way about CV through most of the updates after the initial release, but I've actually had a couple fun games on it lately. It does still have a couple bugs, but for the most part they're just annoying and don't entirely ruin the game. I no longer seem to lose the ball every single time it goes anywhere near the right outlane (though that is still a treacherous area).

Maybe give it another try?

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Specials, and replay scores [are converted to extra balls in TPA].

Those too. I stand corrected.

 

[spoonman]

Let's not forget that arcade coin-op games are mainly designed to separate the player from their money.
Adjusting a few things here and there to make them a bit more forgiving is fine by me.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

Disagreement about appropriate difficulty levels seems to be something that goes on in every online discussion about a game. In every gaming community there are always going to be players of different skill levels, who approach the game with different levels of seriousness. More casual, lower-skilled players who are having fun at lower difficulty levels get upset if it gets harder. More competitive players worry about games in general being dumbed down and want scores to make stark distinctions between lower- and higher-skilled players. The rhetoric can get quite heated; I've seen one game critic liken Mario Kart Wii to Communism.

(TVTropes calls the camps "Scrubs" and "Stop Having Fun Guys", by the names that they might apply to each other.)

In this case, there's an additional dimension in that the games are adaptations of physical pinball games that are usually harder, so the advocates of higher difficulty can usually make a case from authenticity.

I seem to like them harder, not because my skills are excellent (by the standards of these forums they are actually quite poor), but because I have a short attention span and get bored by long balls. When I play Harley-Davidson in TPA, my mind starts to wander around the third or fourth multiball. It's probably a product of being brought up on the kind of 1980s videogames where one hit will always kill your guy.