Request Stop selling two tables at the same time please

[Espy]

$5/£4/whatever for a pinball table is still a great deal. That would last me 30-60 minutes on a real machine.

 

[night]

$5/£4/whatever for a pinball table is still a great deal. That would last me 30-60 minutes on a real machine.

It depends, Class of 1812 looks horrible on my iPad, I don't even want to play it for free.

 

[RetroDude]

then sell your car and buy last need for speed game instead. dont compare RL entertainments with video games. try do it between video games only:
so i can see what the HUGE games like Skyrim is same price as TPA's 1st season pass.

Entertainment is entertainment, regardless of the source.

I was merely giving some very common examples of other entertainment that can far surpass the price of buying tables on TPA.

IF you have an arcade close to where you live or work, you can blow through cash at a fairly quick rate. For most normal people, spending the few bucks that it costs to buy TPA table or pair of tables would take an hour or less... or perhaps two hours if you are good.
If the arcade isn't close... there's the cost of transportation to and from the arcade to consider.

For most beer drinkers, the time it would take to consume $5-7 worth of beer isn't very long.

The price of a movie ticket usually far exceeds the cost of TPA tables and lasts 2-3 hours at most.

None of that has a dang thing to do with selling my car and buying anything.

Yes, they are DIFFERENT forms of entertainment, but they are still entertainment... and TPA is damn cheap entertainment!
$5 gives you basically unlimited play time for the tables you purchase.



I simply don't understand how some people can spend thousands of dollars on their entertainment & gaming systems, internet connections and the like and come absolutely unhinged over a few bucks per table.

 

[RetroDude]

Non diehard fans are busy finding hours of entertainment from the other thousands of games available for 5 dollars that aren't some table from the early 80s they can't identify with. Especially one that they would play a few times and never again.

Some people would consider that comment rather disrespectful of their elders.

Some folks reminder the early 80s quite fondly, thank you.
Those folks also tend to have a lot more disposable income than those that weren't around then.

 

[vpalmer]

Entertainment is entertainment, regardless of the source.

I was merely giving some very common examples of other entertainment that can far surpass the price of buying tables on TPA.

IF you have an arcade close to where you live or work, you can blow through cash at a fairly quick rate. For most normal people, spending the few bucks that it costs to buy TPA table or pair of tables would take an hour or less... or perhaps two hours if you are good.
If the arcade isn't close... there's the cost of transportation to and from the arcade to consider.

For most beer drinkers, the time it would take to consume $5-7 worth of beer isn't very long.

The price of a movie ticket usually far exceeds the cost of TPA tables and lasts 2-3 hours at most.

None of that has a dang thing to do with selling my car and buying anything.

Yes, they are DIFFERENT forms of entertainment, but they are still entertainment... and TPA is damn cheap entertainment!
$5 gives you basically unlimited play time for the tables you purchase.



I simply don't understand how some people can spend thousands of dollars on their entertainment & gaming systems, internet connections and the like and come absolutely unhinged over a few bucks per table.

looks like you simply ignored my comment about comparing TPA price with other video games price and simply repeated your previous post.
ok, you can continue to compare cucumbers with cactuses.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Thread temporarily closed until I can get to work and see what's going on on a decent-sized monitor. Trying to moderate from an iPhone is just an exercise in frustration.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

OK, so it looks like we have one personal attack (which has been removed and a yellow card issued) and an argument which is in danger of boiling over but hasn't actually made it there yet. Since the argument is germane to the thread topic and there are participants who seem to be trying to have an honest discussion about it, it will be allowed to continue, but this thread is being watched. Turn down the rhetorical heat before you post.

Based on what, exactly?
Such speculation without anything to back it up is hardly worth posting.

Oh really now? Then what am I to make of this:

Those folks also tend to have a lot more disposable income than those that weren't around then.

Where's the supporting evidence? It appears that you are guilty of the same lack of citation that you constantly badger others about. (And don't bother posting the evidence. I agree with the assertion itself; I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in not citing supporting evidence when you have repeatedly called out others for not doing so.)

This is a fan forum, not Wikipedia. Speculation, even baseless speculation (within limits), is allowed here. We assume that our members are intelligent human beings (until they demonstrate otherwise) and have sufficient critical thinking skills to decide for themselves whether to believe what they read or not, and that they have the mental wherewithal to do their own research if they are in doubt. This is also why Pin Wiz maintains his "official" information thread, so that people who want the facts and nothing but the facts know where to go to find them.

The other moderators and I are not going to require members to provide footnotes with every post, nor are we going to punish them if what they assert turns out to be false, unless we determine they are maliciously spreading false rumors.

 

[RetroDude]

Where's the supporting evidence? It appears that you are guilty of the same lack of citation that you constantly badger others about. (And don't bother posting the evidence. I agree with the assertion itself; I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in not citing supporting evidence when you have repeatedly called out others for not doing so.)

This is a fan forum, not Wikipedia. Speculation, even baseless speculation (within limits), is allowed here. We assume that our members are intelligent human beings (until they demonstrate otherwise) and have sufficient critical thinking skills to decide for themselves whether to believe what they read or not, and that they have the mental wherewithal to do their own research if they are in doubt. This is also why Pin Wiz maintains his "official" information thread, so that people who want the facts and nothing but the facts know where to go to find them.

The other moderators and I are not going to require members to provide footnotes with every post, nor are we going to punish them if what they assert turns out to be false, unless we determine they are maliciously spreading false rumors.

I'd like to point out that I said that older people tend to have higher disposable incomes. That isn't remotely similar to the claim that no one other than die hard fans would purchase...

I have no problem whatsoever backing up assertions I make.
I don't expect anyone to post footnotes, nor do I plan on doing so in the future.

HOWEVER...
If I'm ever questioned on claims or assertions I make in this or any other forum, you'd better believe that I'll be able to back up what I say.

You say don't bother posting evidence, yet you call me guilty of hypocrisy for not doing so.
When you make a public post as a moderator call me out for something like this, I AM going to post the backing for my comments in my own self defense.
Are we done now?

Enjoy the reading. If you'd like more, I can provide additional links.


http://www.marketingcharts.com/wp/television/baby-boomers-control-70-of-us-disposable-income-22891/

[Mod Edit: Did I not just say don't bother posting the evidence?]

 

[Baron Rubik]

I'm 38, and whilst I don't owe anyone other than the Mortgage, I'm skint but smiling.

 

[Mayuh]

Geez... http://theoatmeal.com/blog/apps

 

[vpalmer]

just wonder why you link US related demographic market reseach to the TPA which is selling worldwide, btw i had see on PAF 4 relatively active users only from RU/UA and here are much from EU and AU too, and dont even try to claim what it is related to "pinball is americana" because it was true only 20 years ago - now days children in US know about pinball less than about Mario, so pinball (especially virtual pinball) today is more game of enthusiasts spreaded worldwide =)

 

[netizen]

"pinball is americana" because it was true only 20 years ago

That whole "Americana" ethnocentrism is a Noble Lie. if it weren't for the European customers in the 60s and the 70s demanding specific types of layouts and changes, Pinball as we know it may it look the way it is.

We asked designer Greg Kmiec to comment on why the 3-flipper version was created. He replies:

I wouldn't have originally designed Paragon with that lower right section that way because it looks like the pinball could get stuck between those two wire forms.

If my memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that the Italian, French and German markets were quite strong for Bally during that period and Bally was often visited by various foreign distributors. I recall that they relayed the fact that their players liked to hold the pinball by the flippers. The way it was relayed to designers through interpreters was that their players liked to hold the pinball on the flipper, take a drink of beer and brag to other players about the skill shot they were about to shoot. That couldn't be done with the original Paragon design. I tried something different with Paragon, since it was Bally's first wide-body game. It was relayed to Bally that the foreign player preferred one return lane on each side at the bottom of the game that "returned" the pinball to the flippers for a playfield skill shot. This type of design became known within the industry as the "Italian Bottom." It was used extensively then throughout the industry and is still in use today.

I do seem to recall adjustments being made to Paragon for foreign games [to have the "Italian Bottom"]. I don't recall how many were changed or if they were changed for only one country or one distributor, but they were definitely changed in the factory on the production line. It might have been due to a combination of two factors: the foreign distributors requesting something their players wanted and Bally realizing a cost reduction on the Bill-Of-Materials by eliminating a flipper. Bally might have been willing to change part of a production run just to sell a new wide-body game.
Reportedly, all Paragon games in France have only 3 flippers.

 

[RetroDude]

looks like you simply ignored my comment about comparing TPA price with other video games price and simply repeated your previous post.
ok, you can continue to compare cucumbers with cactuses.

I don't generally play other video games, so I'm not very familiar with how they are priced.
I have purchased a number of pinball games for the PC platform going back many years, and those were darn expensive compared to TPA in both the price paid at the time and certainly when adjusted for inflation.

I purchased my iPad in no small part to play TPA and I would consider that money well spent and a bargain as well, even if I wasn't able to use it for anything else.

Heck, I purchased a Wii and both the Williams Collection and the Gottlieb Collection for it just to play their earlier versions before TPA came out. Even with the price of that particular console and the two game packages, I considered it a bargain for the entertainment value and the number of hours I played it.

I chose movies, beer and real arcades as simple and easy things to compare that most folks would understand.

The specific comparisons are actually irrelevant to the discussion other than pointing out that I personally consider $2.50 to $8.00 to purchase one or two pinball table simulations with unlimited play time and no recurring monthly fees is a bargain price. I'm far from alone in that consideration. That's been stated numerous times in these forums by other members.

 

[RetroDude]

just wonder why you link US related demographic market reseach to the TPA which is selling worldwide

Quite simply because I'm in the United States. So is FarSight Studios. I'm more familiar with US demographics as well as having easier access to such information.
Canada has fairly similar demographics.

I don't know the breakdown of sales for TPA by continent or country, nor was my use of US demographics an intentional slight to anyone from other than the United States.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

If I'm ever questioned on claims or assertions I make in this or any other forum, you'd better believe that I'll be able to back up what I say.

I never doubted you would be able to do so. But you did not actually do so in this case. After you have challenged so many other people in various threads for not providing supporting evidence for their claims, for you to in turn make an assertion without providing supporting evidence is hypocritical. Unfortunately for you, I noticed and called you out on it. If I hadn't, someone else probably would have.

You say don't bother posting evidence, yet you call me guilty of hypocrisy for not doing so.
When you make a public post as a moderator call me out for something like this, I AM going to post the backing for my comments in my own self defense.

You missed the point. I told you to not bother with the evidence because, as I stated, I already consider that particular assertion true. So I don't need to see more evidence. (Also, I feared - correctly - that you might try to correct your mistake by providing a wall of evidence, to the further distraction of the original topic).

I don't want to see people afraid to post because they are not 100% sure that what they want to say is true, or be afraid to speculate on a matter because they will be asked to provide evidence that they don't have, or that they will be tripped up because they weren't 100% precise in what they wrote.

As for self-defense, you needn't trouble yourself. If I wanted you gone I would have done it by now. Just when you see someone make a claim in the future, take a deep breath and consider it as a matter of (perhaps imprecisely-stated) opinion rather than of fact, and move on. You may politely ask for evidence if you feel it necessary, but you have no right to demand it.

And now we should let the matter rest. We both have made our points; there is no reason to continue expending time and effort on them. If you do feel the need to continue, please PM me so we can at least spare the rest of the forum.

 

[Roo]

Says me. It's my opinion.

I'm a die-hard fan so I'll buy whatever. I'm not sure how many individual purchases tables like Fathom, Sea Witch and Comet will get from casuals who are used to Pinball FX and DMD tables.

I may be dead wrong.

This is highly anecdotal, but based on what I've seen the last few years at the Chicago Pinball Expo and the Midwest Gaming Classic, DMD games generate far more interest than older games. When it's busy, nearly every DMD table will have someone playing it and some even have lines 3-4 deep, but many of the older tables are wide open.

As someone who just got into pinball a few years ago, the newer tables ('90s onward) are mostly where my interests lie as well. But I've found some of the older ones can be surprisingly fun, too, especially as a good change of pace. I can appreciate the historical aspect and innovation they had for their time as well. But that still doesn't mean I'll spend as much time playing Gorgar as I will Attack from Mars.

At this point I'll buy any table available, but I can see where older ones just won't generate as much interest in general.

By the way, the line for Wizard of Oz at Expos is often 8+ people long. Newer/shinier will always attract more people more of the time. It's similar to other industries like cars, music or movies if you think about it. As time goes on, the best and most popular works (greatest hits) from past eras will maintain their popularity and find new generations of fans, but most will fade from memory. People are mostly interested in what's newer.

 

[RetroDude]

This is highly anecdotal, but based on what I've seen the last few years at the Chicago Pinball Expo and the Midwest Gaming Classic, DMD games generate far more interest than older games. When it's busy, nearly every DMD table will have someone playing it and some even have lines 3-4 deep, but many of the older tables are wide open.

As someone who just got into pinball a few years ago, the newer tables ('90s onward) are mostly where my interests lie as well. But I've found some of the older ones can be surprisingly fun, too, especially as a good change of pace. I can appreciate the historical aspect and innovation they had for their time as well. But that still doesn't mean I'll spend as much time playing Gorgar as I will Attack from Mars.

At this point I'll buy any table available, but I can see where older ones just won't generate as much interest in general.

By the way, the line for Wizard of Oz at Expos is often 8+ people long. Newer/shinier will always attract more people more of the time. It's similar to other industries like cars, music or movies if you think about it. As time goes on, the best and most popular works (greatest hits) from past eras will maintain their popularity and find new generations of fans, but most will fade from memory. People are mostly interested in what's newer.

How many of the DMD games are "new" games that people might not have encountered "in the wild" yet?
Games like Wizard of Oz aren't exactly commonplace.

I'll kick in my own anecdotal info.

I've never been to any pinball expos. In fact, I have to take a several day out of town vacation just to find more than one machine at a single location. It's a minimum of 30-45 minute drive to get to the nearest single machine locations and they are not maintained well at all. Getting to a location with more than one table requires a much longer drive.

An 4 hour drive will get me to a location with 9 machines.
An 6 hour drive will get me to a location with 18 machines.
An 8 hour drive will get me to a location with 100 machines.


When making one of these pinball road trips, the first machines I hit ARE the new ones that I've never played before. I'll play them for a while to get a good feel for them and work at least part way through their ruleset.

After that, I'll head back to the machines I like best. DMD or not doesn't come into that decision at all.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the modern Stern machines. If I come across one I've not played before, I'll play them first over other machines I've played before... even before my personal favorites. For me it's both access to new machines I've not played before or haven't played much before.

I'll almost always play a "new to me" machine before any others. The older the machine, the more likely I've played it before. New machines are (almost) exclusively DMD, so that alone affects my playing. If I had close access to a decently populated arcade, my most played machines would include machines from all time periods, from pure EM to the latest DMD and LCD screen machines.


As an aside, the folks that go to pinball expos aren't exactly the mainstream of pinball players.

 

[brakel]

As an aside, the folks that go to pinball expos aren't exactly the mainstream of pinball players.

I think on that point, at least in the US, you are incorrect. Since there are very few pinball arcades in the states anymore, pinball and arcade expos are where the mainstream pinball playing is taking place. There are very few pinball machines to be found in the wild in Chicago but when the expo comes through town that all changes and thousands of us mainstream pinball players converge on the Westin to have a go at almost 100 machines for four days. I think there's more pinball played at the expo than in all of Chicago for the rest of the year!

 

[Jeff Strong]

There are very few pinball machines to be found in the wild in Chicago

ahem...

http://pinballmap.com/chicago

 

[Heretic]

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