Request Suggestion for the Table Difficulty Issues

[tcvpin]

You misread my post. I know why you would nudge in real life, I just don't know how to effectively nudge side to side in real life. I try pushing and pulling and most tables don't even move.

I'm not a big guy and have always wondered about this. There's a recent video of someone playing Wizard of Oz who seems to effortlessly nudge left and right regardless for the machine's actual weight. I can't tell if I'm not pushing hard enough or the machine really is that heavy.

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

Tap the sides or slap depending on sensitive the tilt is push up and to the side. If you want to make TPA harder play with 1 hand

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

You misread my post. I know why you would nudge in real life, I just don't know how to effectively nudge side to side in real life. I try pushing and pulling and most tables don't even move.

Generally side-to-side nudges are done more by striking the appropriate side of the machine - gently! - than by trying to physically push or pull it around. (Death saves are another matter entirely.) Most tables are too heavy for that, although Eight Ball Deluxe is apparently much lighter than other tables, as the first nudge I tried on it nearly threw it into the adjacent machine. Needless to say, it tilted.

I'm not the greatest at it, but I have been known to occasionally hit the side of the machine with my open palm and then use the heel of my wrist to quickly press the flipper button on that side. For example, to nudge the ball off the right wall of Monster Bash so it avoids Dracula's foot (which sticks out from his coffin just enough to cause a ball hitting it to have a risk of center drain) and then catch on the right flipper. If you watch the PAPA 14 Quarterfinal videos (Group 2), you can see Cayle George doing a similar thing on their Monster Bash...I think he even comments on it at one point.

One last tip: If you do the "striking" nudges, remove any rings you're wearing first. Until your hands toughen up, your fingers may swell up from the repeated impacts.

 

[brakel]

I always thought that those videos of guys b**** slapping machines was just an affectation!

 

[Mark W**a]

Drop catches, tap passes and cradle separations are still not possible on Pinball Arcade (or any sim that I know of).

Well drop catches -almost- seem possible, I had them sort of happen on occasion but I still wouldn't call them drop catches, near drop catches at best.

 

[tcvpin]

I always thought that those videos of guys b**** slapping machines was just an affectation!

Like NFL players and butts? "GG TOTAN! GG!"

 

[tcvpin]

Drop catches, tap passes and cradle separations are still not possible on Pinball Arcade (or any sim that I know of).

Well drop catches -almost- seem possible, I had them sort of happen on occasion but I still wouldn't call them drop catches, near drop catches at best.

I can do ... something, although I don't know what it's called. After I catch a ball and it settles at the base of the flipper, I can quickly flip. The ball will hit the bottom edge of the triangle-thingy and get enough velocity to cross the ball over to the other flipper.

Not sure what all that is. Please correct my terminology.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I can do ... something, although I don't know what it's called. After I catch a ball and it settles at the base of the flipper, I can quickly flip. The ball will hit the bottom edge of the triangle-thingy and get enough velocity to cross the ball over to the other flipper.

Not sure what all that is. Please correct my terminology.

That technique is called a post transfer. (And the "triangle-thingy" is a slingshot.)

 

[tcvpin]

That technique is called a post transfer. (And the "triangle-thingy" is a slingshot.)

Are you sure it's not "triangle-thingy?" ;-)

Read all of your blog posts, btw. I enjoyed them.

 

[Shaneus]

I just want to clarify something here. I thought the overly easy physics was due to Farsight just not getting the physics right on most of the tables. Are people saying that the majority of the tables are easier because the physics are *deliberately* gimped?

If that's the case, for shame on FS. For something that's striving to be an accurate representation of their real-life counterparts, it's a poor way to do it.

Sure, if there's genuinely an easy mode set in the system menu (easier extra balls, less challenging goals) then that's an easy fix. But physically altering the table's characteristics (they don't move/add components as well, do they?!?) is just not on at all, IMO.

I hope for all our sakes that it's just accidental on their part and not deliberate. But with how good (on iOS) BoP and Black Hole feel compared to a lot of the others (which feel less weighty in general... closer to a marble than a ball of steel)... I'm not so sure. I mean, I'm not much of a fan of the rules of BoP, but it's easily the best "feeling" game out of all of them.

While I'm at it, I'd love to see the ability to adjust the sensitivity of the touchscreen tilt on iOS as well. There seems to be only one strength available and if that's the case, I'd like to be able to tone it down before each game starts.

Like NFL players and butts? "GG TOTAN! GG!"

This made me laugh far more than it should have! Nice work

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I just want to clarify something here. I thought the overly easy physics was due to Farsight just not getting the physics right on most of the tables. Are people saying that the majority of the tables are easier because the physics are *deliberately* gimped?

If that's the case, for shame on FS. For something that's striving to be an accurate representation of their real-life counterparts, it's a poor way to do it.

Not only are the tables deliberately reduced in difficulty, but it's being done with the support of one of the pinball gods: http://digitalpinballfans.com/showt...e-tables-easier!?p=33376&viewfull=1#post33376

I actually don't have a problem with this, as long as the reduction in difficulty is modest. And up until DLC #7, this was (generally) true. TPA's RBION and MM were easier than the physical machines, but they were still harder relative to the other tables, and their wizard modes still presented a worthy challenge (at least for me) to reach. But now we have Twilight Zone, which has a well-deserved reputation of being a real ballbreaker of a table, reduced to a fluffy-bunny version of itself, when instead it should be at least on the level of RBION if not slightly harder in terms of general gameplay. (Lost in the Zone itself is easier to reach than Atlantis.)

Hence why I would like to see the option of playing the tables using the "untuned" version of the collision mesh and other physical properties, so that players could decide for themselves whether they wanted an easier or a more realistic game. And as several others have commented, sometimes it's not even about difficulty itself, sometimes we want a harder table so that we can get in a quick game and not worry about being there for 2+ hours.

 

[brakel]

We should remember also that actual pinball tables were designed for relieving us of our quarters and wanting us to drop another one because we were so close to getting something. The makers of the tables wanted players to rarely beat the table because if you finished all of the table goals you were much less likely to drop another quarter. So it makes sense to let most people be able to with a little practice beat the table in TPA. But that leaves open the need for an original setting as well.

 

[Mark W**a]

I just wanted to note that other impressions on other message boards people think the tables hard as is or just right.

I'm not saying its not easier than older iOS tables I have, I'm saying I think making it harder is going to alienate the less skilled players.

Nothing wrong with making a hard mode for the more hardcore players, but I mean be careful what you wish for. A missed ramp in real life on most of these tables is a promised sdtm drain. It's not just TZ

If you are looking for challenge buy pro and turn extra balls off and set the table to very hard.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I just wanted to note that other impressions on other message boards people think the tables hard as is or just right.

I'm not saying its not easier than older iOS tables I have, I'm saying I think making it harder is going to alienate the less skilled players.

I've been clear from the beginning that I do not want to see the existing tables disturbed, so less skilled players (or more skilled players wanting to regain their self-esteem after being beat down by a hard table!) can still have the same experience they do now. I think it's a pity that TZ got released in such an easy state, but having been released, I agree that it can't be toughened up now unless we're willing to endure a lot of screaming a la CV's outlanes. So participation in the higher-difficulty mode would be entirely optional, except maybe in tournament play, but if you're moving to competitive play you have to expect the tables to get meaner.

Nothing wrong with making a hard mode for the more hardcore players, but I mean be careful what you wish for. A missed ramp in real life on most of these tables is a promised sdtm drain. It's not just TZ

I know that this request could create monsters, especially since I don't know exactly what takes place during the tuning process. (And it could be that the tuning is not done in a way that is conducive to this idea and the whole thing will have to be rejected.) But the way I see it, the more violent the TPA table becomes (within reason, of course), the more value it has as practice for the real tables, TPA tournaments, or just improving accuracy and ball times when playing in the "normal mode".

If you are looking for challenge buy pro and turn extra balls off and set the table to very hard.

As I've stated elsewhere, TZ doesn't get all that much harder on its Very Hard setting, especially for people who have mastered the left ramp - right ramp - piano combo and therefore can relight locks and door panel shots at will. Extra balls being off of course cuts down on the length of the game, but it doesn't do anything to make those 3 balls more challenging.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I just wanted to note that other impressions on other message boards people think the tables hard as is or just right.

I'm not saying its not easier than older iOS tables I have, I'm saying I think making it harder is going to alienate the less skilled players.

Nothing wrong with making a hard mode for the more hardcore players, but I mean be careful what you wish for. A missed ramp in real life on most of these tables is a promised sdtm drain. It's not just TZ

If you are looking for challenge buy pro and turn extra balls off and set the table to very hard.

If you read Sean's first post, as well as this thread, you'll notice that it's been said several times that what we're asking for is an additional and optional difficulty, so no one will be alienated.

In regards to the pro mode settings: unfortunately that renders the leaderboards useless, so it's not the best option for a lot of us. What we would like to see is a separate leaderboard to go along with the harder difficulty option.

EDIT: what Sean said

 

[Crush3d_Turtle]

I think one of the core gameplay issues the abundance of extra balls the tables provide. When I am doing a top 50 highscore run on any table, I will sometimes have 3 or more extra balls saved up which takes away any pressure of a drain since I know there are 5 balls remaining each with the capability of earning even more extra balls. Scoring high on a table like Funhouse is simply an endurance run for me now (that all to often ends with a disappearing ball) where I shoot the same cycle of shots over and over. In fact, the only time I can lose a ball on that table is when one drains before I have completed the Mystery Mirror awards which include an extra ball. If changing the physics to introduce more variability will require too much work, at least start with a "pro-mode" where extra balls are turned off.

 

[Mark W**a]

If you read Sean's first post, as well as this thread, you'll notice that it's been said several times that what we're asking for is an additional and optional difficulty, so no one will be alienated.

In regards to the pro mode settings: unfortunately that renders the leaderboards useless, so it's not the best option for a lot of us. What we would like to see is a separate leaderboard to go along with the harder difficulty option.

EDIT: what Sean said

If you read my posts you'd see that I acknowledged that several times.

Sean: personally I don't think PA can train u to be better at a real table. I think it makes me worse, actually. It makes no sense, i know, i mean you'd think it would be good training but it's really not. I can't explain why this is.

The best PA helps is learning rules, and I've heard pro players buy it just for the detailed rule sheets.

Anyways I understand where you guys are coming from its just I'm siding with Roger Sharpe and the guys at Farsight. When I pop in PA on my iPhone I'm looking for a good fun session, not this brutal hard tournament training which wouldn't train u anyway just make u worse. Now on console they don't need to nerf the tables any more than they already are, the difficulty imo is just right (so far).

Also without extra balls if u can still reach lost in the zone on extra hard on Ios then I truly commend you Sean but you are in the top <1% then of digital players. I consider myself pretty good but I'd probably be hard pressed to pull that off on iOS even with this nerfed difficulty.

 

[Mark W**a]

Speaking of console tables, I mean when you really stop and think about it, has anyone complained about them being too easy? I mean honestly, and before Bobby King or whomever it was came out and said they made them easier, was this on anyone's mind? Sure some people thought so but if anything there were many more voices saying they were too hard in fact, like Cirqus Voiltaire still gets brought up for being too hard, or Medieval Madness because of the flipper gap.

Yet the Xbox tables are, in fact, much much MUCH easier than the real thing. You honestly think I could approach a billion points on a real Medieval Madness? Maybe if I owned on and practiced every day. On 5 balls. And super easy setting. And some performance enhancing drugs. On a full moon. MAYBE.

My main reason I stayed away from iOS versions for so long is cause I couldn't stand them. It's too frustrating losing balls that would have been simple saves on Xbox. I still won't touch Arabian on here even though I own it. Yet scared stiff and TZ I can actually enjoy. You need the help to counter balance the inherent handicap of the platform.

So I'm leaving the discussion at that. I will say this final thing, if console TZ is notably easier than past console tables ill be right here with you Sean arguing on your side.

 

[xNiCeGuYx]

I've wanted a more difficult mode since may!
http://digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/699-Tournament-mode-for-each-table

 

[Mark W**a]

You're wish is - somewhat - granted. If you don't mind spending 3.99 additional per table :/