The Scoring On This Table Is Terribly Unbalanced

[JPelter]

I've hit the billion point shot twice on one ball in this game (once and only once), and besides that, I've never gotten it even once on any other game. While it does require a little bit of skill to hit the billion point shot (it really isn't that difficult), lighting it is purely a matter of luck, so I personally don't see it as any indication of skill. It's exciting to score a billion points, but I honestly think it was a dumb design choice, overall, as it totally throws off the rankings. As far as I'm concerned, if I score 2,050,000,000, and someone else got 75,000,000, the latter is the better score.

This is a good point, but sadly the scoring problems aren't limited to the billion point shot. The same grind you do for those shots also gives you 10 and 50 million point shots which makes any kind of scoring on the table completely meaningless. Breaking 1B even without ever hitting the billion point shot is extremely easy.

I just try to enjoy the table for the aesthetic values since the sound package is amazing and I really like the design.

 

[shutyertrap]

I just try to enjoy the table for the aesthetic values since the sound package is amazing and I really like the design.

Yep, that's it for me exactly. I kind of just drop into a zen state of mind while playing it. Points be damned, I find it very satisfying. Except for those times I get instant ball drains and only score 6 million. Then I'm cursing myself for being incredibly lame!

 

[garethjuk]

You have to think about the time it was designed, it must have been one of the first games that had an AlphaNumeric display instead of a numeric only one. The designers (as most developers would) thought "We have more space to work with... ...we could have a score of 1bn".

Just a thought.

 

[Rudy Yagov]

You have to think about the time it was designed, it must have been one of the first games that had an AlphaNumeric display instead of a numeric only one.

Nope. It was actually one of the LAST alphanumeric games before switching over to dot matrix.

The first Williams alphanumeric game was High Speed from 1986. BoP was made in 1991.

 

[garethjuk]

Nope. It was actually one of the LAST alphanumeric games before switching over to dot matrix.

The first Williams alphanumeric game was High Speed from 1986. BoP was made in 1991.

Ok, Thanks I stand corrected.

 

[Tabe]

I also agree that the scoring on this table is wildly unbalanced. I got the billion point shot tonight for the first time and was actually rather let down after doing so. It just seemed too easy. I remember when the game came out, a couple co-workers and I hit a bar that had gotten it. We'd heard about the "billion point shot" and were excited to try the game for the first time. We didn't get the billion that night and just assumed it was some mythical, extremely difficult to achieve, target. Turns out it's not. And, I must say, I hate that luck is even a factor in lighting the shot in the first place. That detracts from it, IMHO.

My top three scores are 1,032,000, one of 69,000,000 and another of around 53,000,000. In all honesty, the best game was the 53,000,000 one. The other two had a billion point and a 50,000,000 point shot in them. The most skill and length of play was involved in the 53,000,000 game.

That said, I definitely enjoy playing the game a lot and it actually ended up being the first game I got all the wizard goals for (since I can't seem to get the 1,000,000 trap door again in Funhouse, LOL). It's just that the scoring is unbalanced and not indicative of how well you actually played a particular game.

Tabe

 

[mmmagnetic]

Got the billion shot twice today, and on the first ball too. Just a couple of weeks ago I was really struggling with this table, until I saw a video where the player just shoots the heart ramp during multiball, where it slowly comes down to the right flipper from that winding plastic ramp, with a perfect speed for the shuttle ramp. I used to panic and shoot the two balls into the bumper zone, which of course is a much more risky move...

Once I got the Shuttle and heart ramp shots down there is literally nothing else worth shooting for, and it's not like in CV or MM where the "big shooting gimmick" has a certain risk - the two ramps here are very safe and the ball is almost never out of control.

This is the first time where I got bored of a pinball game and just let the last two balls drain after not having any luck on the last few big wheels... which is a shame because the whole presentation is absolutely stunning. It has one of the most memorable main themes tunes on a pinball I've played so far (MM being right up there as well), and the tune variations during the idle plunger mode are fantastic, the whole concept is brilliant and I really love the other shots the game has, but boy, I really wonder how nobody realized what a terrible gimmick this big wheel nonsense is.

I'm really curious to see if we could ever get the P.ROC mod, I would hate to let this great table collect virtual dust.

 

[shutyertrap]

Got the billion shot twice today, and on the first ball too. Just a couple of weeks ago I was really struggling with this table, until I saw a video where the player just shoots the heart ramp during multiball, where it slowly comes down to the right flipper from that winding plastic ramp, with a perfect speed for the shuttle ramp. I used to panic and shoot the two balls into the bumper zone, which of course is a much more risky move...

Once I got the Shuttle and heart ramp shots down there is literally nothing else worth shooting for, and it's not like in CV or MM where the "big shooting gimmick" has a certain risk - the two ramps here are very safe and the ball is almost never out of control.

This is the first time where I got bored of a pinball game and just let the last two balls drain after not having any luck on the last few big wheels... which is a shame because the whole presentation is absolutely stunning. It has one of the most memorable main themes tunes on a pinball I've played so far (MM being right up there as well), and the tune variations during the idle plunger mode are fantastic, the whole concept is brilliant and I really love the other shots the game has, but boy, I really wonder how nobody realized what a terrible gimmick this big wheel nonsense is.

I'm really curious to see if we could ever get the P.ROC mod, I would hate to let this great table collect virtual dust.

Okay, what's the P.ROC mod?

I haven't been able to do any better than 2 billion, and that's been frustrating me. Must. Get. 9 billion. Someone else mentioned this, but I really do find the table a relaxing exercise in repetition. I'll get a nice rhythm going between heart ramp and shuttle ramp, and then somehow blow the money shot which makes snaps me out of my lull and practically throw the controller.

And yeah, those ramps are safe to shoot, but those out lanes are killer! I dread having the ball go wild on the slingshots, cause more often than not it's a ball drain. I know, not enough to compensate for the lack of much to do on the table.

See, BoP is like that hot stupid girl. Great presentation keeps you coming back, but then you remember there's not much going on upstairs. That's why Pin*Bot cries "Oh, no!" when she gains the ability to speak!

 

[bavelb]

Played the table for an hour tonight so that my highscore on 360 beats my iOS version. Probably won't touch the table again except maybe for showing it off as in playfield-presentation you can't really beat it, the table is way to onesided for me. Worst table of the whole collection (and that includes Gorgar).

Not criticizing FS for including it, I can see it's charm for casual players/beginners: lots of moving parts and toys, there's some big numbers that pop up that look impressive. But I'm competitive (albeit mostly with people on my friendslist, ie: this forum or my own highscore) and the table is way to onesided for me.

 

[pseudokings]

FANTASTIC TABLE. The billion point shot is one of the greatest rewards for good play, and good luck, in all of pinball. So is the metamorphosis.

The things some people feel the need to complain about. "This Ferrari is too beautiful." "Misty & Kerry never lose in the Olympics." "NBA players ruin what's supposed to be the best basketball tournament on the planet." Come on.

It's a spectacle. One that the fan base would be screaming for if it wasn't already part of the lineup.
First time I ponied up to this table in real life, I looked at it and said "whoa... cool". And it's a great play, even if you don't break it out for tournaments.

 

[bavelb]

FANTASTIC TABLE. The billion point shot is one of the greatest rewards for good play, and good luck, in all of pinball. So is the metamorphosis.

The metamorphosis yes, the billion point shot, no.

The things some people feel the need to complain about. "This Ferrari is too beautiful." "Misty & Kerry never lose in the Olympics." "NBA players ruin what's supposed to be the best basketball tournament on the planet." Come on.

The comparison doesnt hold at all: If one shot dominates all other shots, making the need for all other shots and goals useless (for comparison, the highest other shot on the table is 5% of the billion point shot and is ALSO on the big wheel) the ferrari isnt a ferrari, its a mini cooper with a ferrari steering weel to make the driver pretend he's drivng a ferrari. It's changing the basketball rules on OS to make shots from your own half of the court count for 50 points. It has nothing to do with something of excellence being TOO excellent, it's about the table being a one-trick pony.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

FANTASTIC TABLE. The billion point shot is one of the greatest rewards for good play, and good luck, in all of pinball. So is the metamorphosis.

I'm by no means a pinball wizard, either here or on real tables, but I don't find making the same not-very-difficult shot 9 times in a row and then praying that the wheel lands on the billion shot indicative of good play. (The billion shot itself is not hard, either.)

If you're looking for a single shot that rewards good play, try Iron Man's "Do or Die" shot, which is awarded for lighting up all 5 modes in the center of the table on the same ball (extremely difficult) and starts a hurry-up for 50M (for comparison, a replay on Iron Man is usually 9-12M).

 

[IceCat88]

I agree with earlier posters that comparatively little work goes into the billion point shot compared to the rest of scoring on the table. However the value of the billion point shot is so high that it actually makes each score easy to interpret as two separate scores:

1) How many billion point scores were achieved/lucked into
2) How you played for the rest of the table

So when I read someone's score of 2,233,530,085 I am way more impressed with that than 3,060,277,060. Essentially, I think the score itself is structured well for interpretation, it is just sorting and ranking scores that is broken.

Since this is my first post, I'll add that I'm quite new to pinball in general, but I've quickly become a Farsight fanboy.

 

[BonzoGonzo]

hey, welcome aboard

pinball is kinda cool, yes

try playing a table in real life if you ever get a chance to

or with the words taken from cirqus voltaire:

play a real game, play pinball!

 

[WilliamPorygon]

I'm by no means a pinball wizard, either here or on real tables, but I don't find making the same not-very-difficult shot 9 times in a row and then praying that the wheel lands on the billion shot indicative of good play. (The billion shot itself is not hard, either.)

I agree. The much harder to achieve Backdoor Billion is a great award for great play, and I don't think most of us would have major complaints about the scoring being unbalanced if it were the only billion point award the game offered. But the standard big wheel award that comprises probably 99.9% of the billion point awards the game gives out? No, I consider it more of a gimmick than an award.

 

[Richard B]

You'd have to go back to the EM era to find a machine with worse rules, yet it always ranks at least in the Top 50 (often cracking the Top 30) at rankings sites. Why? Part of it is the trademark Williams presentation, which is all the more impressive given the hardware limitations, but I think it is also because of the incredible tension this table creates. One shot that you've been making easily the whole game, will determine whether this is a successful game. It's like playing in the final quarter in a basketball game for the championship, score tied, with enough time to get off one last shot. Making the ramp shot during Metamorphosis is much more difficult than during earlier phases, even though, obviously, the shot doesn't change at all. When the Big Wheel spins, it's like the roulette player putting the last of his money on red, and praying for the best. If it hits the Billion Point Shot, there's a feeling of triumph, as well as the incredible anxiety of what lies ahead. Hitting the BPS gives only a brief triumph, as you realize you need to hit it again and again, each time it gets more difficult, as you best your previous score. That Heart Ramp shot you've been so easily making all this time suddenly becomes more and more difficult. Fail to hit it, or, God forbid, losing a ball, produces the agony of defeat the pinball player knows so well. However, unlike failing the Grand Finale, Join the Cirqus or Battle for the Kingdom, this is something that happens pretty much every game.
So, while it is a poor machine for Tournaments and serious players, when it comes to producing the excitement and agony of victory and defeat, the Machine does this well, and often.

 

[shutyertrap]

You'd have to go back to the EM era to find a machine with worse rules, yet it always ranks at least in the Top 50 (often cracking the Top 30) at rankings sites. Why? Part of it is the trademark Williams presentation, which is all the more impressive given the hardware limitations, but I think it is also because of the incredible tension this table creates. One shot that you've been making easily the whole game, will determine whether this is a successful game. It's like playing in the final quarter in a basketball game for the championship, score tied, with enough time to get off one last shot. Making the ramp shot during Metamorphosis is much more difficult than during earlier phases, even though, obviously, the shot doesn't change at all. When the Big Wheel spins, it's like the roulette player putting the last of his money on red, and praying for the best. If it hits the Billion Point Shot, there's a feeling of triumph, as well as the incredible anxiety of what lies ahead. Hitting the BPS gives only a brief triumph, as you realize you need to hit it again and again, each time it gets more difficult, as you best your previous score. That Heart Ramp shot you've been so easily making all this time suddenly becomes more and more difficult. Fail to hit it, or, God forbid, losing a ball, produces the agony of defeat the pinball player knows so well. However, unlike failing the Grand Finale, Join the Cirqus or Battle for the Kingdom, this is something that happens pretty much every game.
So, while it is a poor machine for Tournaments and serious players, when it comes to producing the excitement and agony of victory and defeat, the Machine does this well, and often.

Well put. I come back to this table again and again, and I think you nailed why. Shooting the heart ramp with the right flipper, I can do that easily 5 times in a row, then I start thinking about it. Hit that 6th time, and in the back of my mind I'm wondering if I maybe waited just a bit too long to hit the flipper. If I hit a 7th, I'm no longer just feeling it, but instead second guessing my timing. I've never hit that shot more than 10 times in a row. I'm fairly consistent with the heart ramp from the left flipper, but just the other night I suddenly couldn't hit it to save my life.

I like your analogy, I think it fits.

 

[Kaoru]

Yep! Exactly my thoughts.

Apart from that, you really need some nerves of steel to get to the said shot from beginning to end. Not always you manage to get from A to B, and when you lose one of the two balls you usually have to go back right to the start. And then the big wheel won't always stop at 1 Billion, of course! So if you got 2 or 3 billions collected in your highscore it very well suggests that you've been playing for a long while. So I actually DO think that that score says something about your playing skill in the end!

But yeah, I do agree that at the same time "Bride" is not that well suited for compatitive games. But then again not every table out there just needs to be, I think.

 

[bavelb]

So, while it is a poor machine for Tournaments and serious players, when it comes to producing the excitement and agony of victory and defeat, the Machine does this well, and often.

I agree with your whole post, I can see why it ranks so high.

Come to think of it, it isn't the giant 1B shot that bothers me about the table, the problem I have with it is that every single thing you do to get that shot is the same, ad nauseum.

I think the table would've been better if out of the 3 different things needed to get to the possibility of the shot (transforming the bride, preparing/resetting the shuttle, spinning the big wheel) different targets were used: transform the Bride with the shuttle ramp, prepare the shuttle ramp by spelling S.H.U.T.T.L.E by shooting spottargets (or something), and spinning the big wheel by shooting 1 ball up the shuttleramp and the other to the jackpot-trap to the left.

The table has a ton of potential, possibly a top 10 table, but it uses only a very small part of the table. I can see why people chose this table to make their p-roc mod:

Too bad it's unlikely that this will ever come to TPA (as the P-roc is proprietary/added hardware that is still on sale, but then again it's not in the spirit of TPA to bring modded tables, but to preserve the originals.

 

[bavelb]

The above movie has been shown a number of times already, here's a movie with some actual gameplay that I hadn't seen before: