Top 5-10 Pinballs every made - Pro talk

[PET3R]

I don't think this is a weakness. Linear scoring is fine. It's OK for one feature to dominate scoring if that feature is the wizard mode which makes you play everything else along the way. It keeps your goals aligned: your progress towards the wizard mode is also your progress towards big scoring. I prefer that over the table offering a bunch of side features that you have to ignore because they don't score enough (this means you, Ripley's).

I actually think TAF is too balanced for scoring. Like every single shot you do in TAF scores 5 or 10 million. It doesn't matter what you start or what strategy you apply, pretty much everything is worth the same amount. There are no big prizes to chase, no escalation, which makes the game duller and robs it of excitement. I want the thrill of the lumpy scoring of LITZ and RTU and Monsters of Rock. As long as the lumpy scoring makes you do a variety of things to get there and isn't just grinding one feature repetitively (Ripley's) and consistently rewards you rather than making you pass/fail on a narrow set of shots (Whitewater 3x jackpots, Stiff-o-meter, Road Show's wizard locks, BFTK.)

I respect your opinion here and you have an interesting point regarding balanced scoring in TAF, but I would also like to express my opinion to open a discussion on these topics.

1) TAF - Don't forget you get 50m for reaching the wizard and if you keep your ball long enough during the wizard you can rack up pretty big score. Also your multiball jackpots and super jackpots can be anything from 20m-30m+

2) I do agree having spikes in scoring is interesting but to have a single spike during wizard mode that doubles your score is not right. As I said, to me AFM feels more like how far can I get rather than what score can I get. There is nothing wrong with it but I would rather play Stern's Star Trek to see how many of it's 18 modes I can beat rather than how many times I can rule the universe. I have completed wizard in AFM and I know if I want to beat my high score I have to rule the universe at least once. If in my next game I will rule universe 2x my score might be around 40 billion from which 20 billion is coming from the wizard mode. Before I even start my next game I am already aware I have to rule universe at least 2x before I can attack my high score. Etc...
This would not be as bad if going towards wizard would not feel always like the same journey. It feels like a shopping list, ticking the boxes. 5-way combo - check, Super Jackpot - check, super jets - check, 6 saucers - check .... there is similarity to collecting junk in Junkyard. It is 6 goals always being reached the same way just in different order.

3) Timed modes - In AFM you can take as much time as you want and miss as many shots as you want, as long as you don't drain. We both played a game. We both did not manage to finish the last goal towards the wizard and ended up with very similar score of 15 billion. Does this mean we are at the same level ? Not at all, because your game lasted 10 minutes as you hit most of the needed shots on the first attempt, but my game lasted 30 minutes as I was struggling with the shots and it took me lot of missed shots before I finally made a successful shot.
This is where timed modes spice up everything and why I am a big fan of them. If we are to play MB together and I keep missing my shots I won't reach Monsters of Rock as there is always time limit within which you have to do these shots. Because you know your shots, you will reach it 2x and there will be massive difference between our 2 scores. Even though this is better to AFM, MB still feels like ticking the boxes. Who cares if you played that mode better than me, we just need to do 4 shots to collect that monster instrument. Great, that's done, 5 to go. And if you failed, nothing happens as you restart the mode and try again.
This is where TAF, TZ, RS and RBION are better as you have only 1 chance per mode to either make a huge score or to fail. No second chances. However there was another problem - timing out of some modes.

4) Here comes the table that in a very elegant way sorts out all the previous mentioned weakness. STTNG.

a) your journey towards wizard is always very different and very exciting. (no ticking boxes)
b) there is no goal that would stop you from reaching wizard (super jackpot)
c) you don't have whole day to do your shots and try again and again if you miss the ramp
d) you play the modes best as you can as that will determine your shot values during Final Frontier
e) you can still time them out and strategize but this will affect your wizard scoring.
f) huge spikes in scoring but not unfair
g) huge differences in scores between new and experienced players
h) wizard is not difficult to reach but it depends on YOU! how much it will score.
i) reaching more wizards does not mean beating your high score - 1 big value wizard > 2x small point wizards
j) you start wizard from the same shot you are doing during the whole game
k) it let's you start wizard from the plunger !!! (SS is the only other table that I am aware of)
l) you can skip video mode
m) no nonsense just pure shots and 100% accuracy
n) wizard multiball that feels like an award after hard work through the modes, but still requires to be played well
o) you can start modes, lock balls, start multiball and lot of others from the plunger
p) wide body so you have to be more accurate
q) unforgiving, rewards only the best, punishes the bad shots
r) very good layout
s) 3 flippers
t) you can still play your "how far can I get - how many wizards can I reach" game if you want to
u) this is not stop and go table as you doing all the shots on the go
v) fairly quick games, but the better you are the longer you will play
x) already during the first mode you are attacking your high score as not playing it well has got consequences
y) you need to play 100% during the whole game and can't afford single weak moment
z) high score is the measurement of your skill. You know if it is high it means you played a bloody good game with clean shots and it feels great !

Because of all these reasons I think STTNG actually deserves no 1 spot in our rating.

 

[WhiteChocolate]

doh! ;0 well that's on me; i digressed a lot while thinking about why i hadn't much tuned into the MM/AFM tables before... i tend to ramble a lot with my thoughts. (lol ever notice? ;0)

and i grok that too, at this level of thinking about it, yeah "modes is/are just another scoring" - makes me wonder; i seem to remember seeing discussions before about little AI-score-determining programs/algos elsewhere online; wonder how they could (or maybe already have been??) applied to pinball... especially say for example, if a fs or someone does make a modernized "pb construction set/kit," some kind of auto-scoring helper would be handy in all sorts of ways... :0 (ps. there'd be a lot of vague things to deal with though, now mentally separating "rules" and "score" in my head... not to mention trickshots of various kinds...)

darnit, there, i just went and rambled again! lol carry on - i'll keep reading!

 

[jonesjb]

Some good thoughts in this thread. I'll just share a few of my comments:

1) Pet3r: Good point about the linear scoring on AFM, I never really thought of this but I agree. I think if you could essentially retake Mars/ the universe again, it would prevent this flaw (if you can call it that) from happening. But as the rules stand... you make it to the end, and there really isn't else much to do.

2) WhiteChocolate: Good point about the central toy taking too much of a focus. Other tables without a central toy do have more unique gameplay nuances.

3) I agree to take TOM out.

4) Regarding CC, I don't know what the heck it is with this one. Maybe I just never got into the rules that much, but I can have a very good game, hitting targets, etc and still come away with a low score. It almost seems way too rule dependent (Victory also seems to suffer from this, not that I'm suggesting Victory should be in the top 10).

5) What do you guys mean timed modes being a weakness? Can you explain, I'm not disagreeing...just not following.

6) The Star Trek lanes being blocked make me really not enjoy playing it.

7) I think Twilight Zone should be reevaluated, it seems like many of the concerns with the table are subjective (i.e. not liking the modes as opposed to the scoring imbalance.... which I understand is more of the emphasis of this topic). I'm a big fan of this one, you play well you get a good score, you don't play well... you score poorly. It seems rather balanced. What are the concerns here again?

8) Seriously though, find yourself a Shadow. I wanted to buy my own machine, and I did research like you are doing now to make sure my money was going to something with balanced scoring, would be fun, look good, and last a LONG time. The Shadow was the table I resolved on, purchased one and love it! Trivia on the Shadow, The Shadow was designed by the same designer of MM and AFM (Brian Eddy) before he made those. I enjoy AFM and MM but relies too much on the central toy issue WhiteChocolate points out...The Shadow doesn't have this issue.

 

[WhiteChocolate]

you are far too kind to my comments jonesjb! thanks - real respect for the hardcore heavy-thinkers who started and spearhead this thread though... i think it was harvey pekar in "american splendor" paraphrased it best... "this pinball is... complicated stuff!"

 

[PET3R]

Some good thoughts in this thread. I'll just share a few of my comments:

1) Pet3r: Good point about the linear scoring on AFM, I never really thought of this but I agree. I think if you could essentially retake Mars/ the universe again, it would prevent this flaw (if you can call it that) from happening. But as the rules stand... you make it to the end, and there really isn't else much to do.

2) WhiteChocolate: Good point about the central toy taking too much of a focus. Other tables without a central toy do have more unique gameplay nuances.

3) I agree to take TOM out.

4) Regarding CC, I don't know what the heck it is with this one. Maybe I just never got into the rules that much, but I can have a very good game, hitting targets, etc and still come away with a low score. It almost seems way too rule dependent (Victory also seems to suffer from this, not that I'm suggesting Victory should be in the top 10).

5) What do you guys mean timed modes being a weakness? Can you explain, I'm not disagreeing...just not following.

6) The Star Trek lanes being blocked make me really not enjoy playing it.

7) I think Twilight Zone should be reevaluated, it seems like many of the concerns with the table are subjective (i.e. not liking the modes as opposed to the scoring imbalance.... which I understand is more of the emphasis of this topic). I'm a big fan of this one, you play well you get a good score, you don't play well... you score poorly. It seems rather balanced. What are the concerns here again?

8) Seriously though, find yourself a Shadow. I wanted to buy my own machine, and I did research like you are doing now to make sure my money was going to something with balanced scoring, would be fun, look good, and last a LONG time. The Shadow was the table I resolved on, purchased one and love it! Trivia on the Shadow, The Shadow was designed by the same designer of MM and AFM (Brian Eddy) before he made those. I enjoy AFM and MM but relies too much on the central toy issue WhiteChocolate points out...The Shadow doesn't have this issue.

1) It feels really nice to see someone agreeing with me. Thanks for the support.
2) I agree too
3) If nobody objects against, than I will take TOM out of top 10
4) Trying to figure out what is wrong with this table. It has so much potential, but something just does not click.
5) Timing out the modes - Imagine not really playing modes in TAF but just holding the ball and waiting until time runs out as you just want to quickly reach wizard.
6) Can you please explain ? Don't understand what you mean.
7) I will as I think you are right I might be bit too subjective. It's more about being copy of TAF with more modes that are not necesarrily great and bit crowded playfield.
8) I will definitely do research on it, thanks for the recommendation, if it is really as good as you say I will bring it to top 10

 

[jonesjb]

5) Ah so having timed modes is a good thing. If you hold the flipper on modes, you will definitely have your score negatively impacted and you won't do as well.

6) in Star Trek there are the two phaser things/guns that sit over the outlines. When I play, I have no control over saving or losing the ball because I can't see the ball trajectory that easily.

7) I agree with TZ being like a TAF, but with the bonus of not having its multi balls being heavily affected by the magnets. It has an extra flipper too!

8) I recommend playing it first though. FYI Shadow has 6 timed modes, similar to TAF in that you CAN hold the ball on the flipper and it will run out, however your score will be affected and you only have one shot at each mode. In order to reach wizard mode you need to complete the 6 modes, achieve two different types of multi balls, and complete one of the toys that works like breakout... And that's just to get to the wizard mode. Multiballs have the opportunity for double and triple jackpots, but here's the best part... The double and triple jackpots need to be set up and are only available for a limited time during the multiballs (compared with W20 where the triple lasts the whole multiball) they can still be set up multiple times, but it isn't heavily reliant on one thing, like whether or not you made the initial 3 shots on the insanity falls. The wizard mode is very difficult to get to, and even more difficult to complete. Aside from the modes, there are other fun ways to accrue points such as vengeance. And the table has one of the coolest multiball locks in pinball.

 

[PET3R]

5) It depends on how timed mode is implemented. In STTNG you really want to play each mode as being successful at them increases your wizard mode scoring. But in TOM some of the modes are big hazard and are not worth playing so you would just wait until the time runs out. You might do this with all of them as in the bigger picture you care more about the goal of finishing all 8 modes which takes you to wizard with high scoring. So in TOM it is not very good having timed modes, as they sometimes become pointless.

6) You can't really save the ball in STTNG when it goes to outlanes, even without the guns, so I don't see them as a problem.

7) extra flipper ? where ? TAF has got 4 and so does TZ.

8) going to try to make VP work, you can download this table there so will give it a try to understand rules.

 

[invitro]

8) Seriously though, find yourself a Shadow. I wanted to buy my own machine, and I did research like you are doing now to make sure my money was going to something with balanced scoring, would be fun, look good, and last a LONG time. The Shadow was the table I resolved on, purchased one and love it! Trivia on the Shadow, The Shadow was designed by the same designer of MM and AFM (Brian Eddy) before he made those. I enjoy AFM and MM but relies too much on the central toy issue WhiteChocolate points out...The Shadow doesn't have this issue.

Shadow was my #1 game of all time for many years, I'm envious . I hope your Battlefield and diverters work well. (The "Phurba" diverters, I think that is their name? It's been about 15 years since I've played it .)

 

[jonesjb]

Sorry, mental lapse. I wrote this early in the morning. TAF and TZ both have 4 flippers!

 

[PET3R]

Just played a few games of the Shadow on VP and went through all the rules. I need to really thank you for this suggestion as it left on me really good first impression. I really like the layout and the simplicity of the game. There are very simple rules that are very easy to understand. 4 Goals for wizard - modes, 2 miltiballs and Khan. That seems to be all there is, and it encourages you to play it all. I need to give it more plays as I have slight worry. 1) modes does not seem to score as high compared to multiballs, therefore making you think you might even want to time them out just to be able to play wizard very quickly (1 Billion chance), 2) I know it is not easy to hit all the switches during the wizard but 1 Billion might seem steep to me. Compared to this 10 or 20 million in modes does not seem very much. I am just worried the whole attention might lean towards the wizard. Let's quickly go there (time out the modes) because that is where the big points are. And instead of playing the score you will end up playing - how many times did I beat the wizard. 2 billion - 2x, 3 billion 3x (almost like reaching the universe. As I said I need to give it more plays to be able to judge properly. There is also advantage of having only 6 modes, so you get to wizard quite quickly, therefore you might really feel to play them to grab that extra points on the way there. Now I wish that this table would come soon to Pinball Arcade as I can see it as one of my favourites.

 

[PET3R]

Back to STTNG. I have never paid the attention to this but yesterday I have read all the rules and learned about the 3 Neutral Zone modes.

Ferengi mode - I always loved the idea of having Jackpots multiplied by the number of balls you can keep or lock (T2, The Shadow) in game. I really love the way it is done here, the most out of all 3 of them.

Cardassian and Borg multiball - once again excellent idea with the shield/spinner, especially in Cardassian where the Jackpot value is dropping down.

I was really delighted to see these innovative rules here and makes me happy it is part of STTNG the big contender of no 1 spot in our ratings. I will be adding Ferengi and Cardassian mode to my A-Z list of what makes STTNG perfect table.

 

[jonesjb]

Pet3r, glad you are enjoying The Shadow. It's nice to get into the zen of hitting the vengeance diverters. With good gameplay it's possible to get between 1 and 3 billion without final battle. Final battle is something people may complete once or twice a year (it's not like tour the Mansion where you can get it frequently). It's that hard. If you complete all targets while keeping 2 balls in play you are definitely the most skilled. Please continue to share your thoughts as you put more gameplay into it. I'm interested in your perspective.

I'm not sure if you've seen this, but Papa has suggested game setup rules for tables. These outline how fair one table is in gauging ones skill, as well as recommending how to tweak the game to prevent possible exploiting of the rules.

http://papa.org/learning-center/director-resources/directors/game-notes/

Interestingly they actually call STTNG out as a table imbalanced by the high scoring of final battle and that players are apt to time the modes out.

Coincidently they actually mention the magnets in TAF, and that players will time them out too (they are risk I suppose). Papa recommends disabling the magnets in competitive play.

 

[vikingerik]

But more than 20 years ago when I was a kid I would not notice this and there was no internet at that time where we could find out about it.

But I didn't find out about the hold bonus loophole on the internet. I figured it out for myself. I bet you saw that Pinball Fantasies rulesheet that floats around Gamefaqs and other places? Well... I wrote it.

 

[vikingerik]

As I said, to me AFM feels more like how far can I get rather than what score can I get.

This is personal preference, but I prefer this way of doing it. I like when scoring is aligned with the progress you should be making during a game. Pinball isn't as much fun when your progress doesn't match what you have to do for scoring. We've all had experiences like Whitewater where it feels like a good game is going, getting through a bunch of rafts and whirlpools... but there isn't anything to show for it on the scoreboard and then the next game beats that with just a couple of timely jackpots.

3) Timed modes - In AFM you can take as much time as you want and miss as many shots as you want, as long as you don't drain. We both played a game. We both did not manage to finish the last goal towards the wizard and ended up with very similar score of 15 billion. Does this mean we are at the same level ?

Yes, it does. If you missed more shots but got the same result, it means you were very good at saving and controlling those missed shots. That is also skill and you earned the same progress. Which brings me back to STTNG:

q) unforgiving, rewards only the best, punishes the bad shots
z) high score is the measurement of your skill. You know if it is high it means you played a bloody good game with clean shots and it feels great !

You're right that STTNG always treats you well if you hit your shots... but I think it's too punishing for misses. Those outlanes and the extra angle on the slingshots leading towards them... it's a significant enough problem that STTNG isn't as fun as other games and I wouldn't put it at #1 all time.

There's more to pinball than just making shots. Controlling a loose ball is also very skill-testing. Pinball already has a built-in skill tester in keeping the ball in play. It doesn't need another by slapping a tight timer onto modes or drastic swings for passing or failing them.

You can do a lot more with flippers than just shoot. Flippers are not bats or clubs for whacking the ball. They are your hands inside the game cabinet and can do many moves. They can catch, pass, deflect, toss, bump, redirect, and lots more. Pinball skill is about all of this.

 

[PET3R]

Pet3r, glad you are enjoying The Shadow. It's nice to get into the zen of hitting the vengeance diverters. With good gameplay it's possible to get between 1 and 3 billion without final battle. Final battle is something people may complete once or twice a year (it's not like tour the Mansion where you can get it frequently). It's that hard. If you complete all targets while keeping 2 balls in play you are definitely the most skilled. Please continue to share your thoughts as you put more gameplay into it. I'm interested in your perspective.

I'm not sure if you've seen this, but Papa has suggested game setup rules for tables. These outline how fair one table is in gauging ones skill, as well as recommending how to tweak the game to prevent possible exploiting of the rules.

http://papa.org/learning-center/director-resources/directors/game-notes/

Interestingly they actually call STTNG out as a table imbalanced by the high scoring of final battle and that players are apt to time the modes out.

Coincidently they actually mention the magnets in TAF, and that players will time them out too (they are risk I suppose). Papa recommends disabling the magnets in competitive play.

Shadow - If this is the case than I like it even more specially as you said that you can score between 1 and 3 billion without the final battle. 1 billion as a reward for such a difficult wizard is not much in that case. What about multiballs ? Dont they feel unbalanced towards everything ? Isn't there strategies where people would concentrate only on multibals ? Unfortunatelly the table crashing after 5 minutes of play so I won't be to able to figure this out by my self, but I really can't wait for it to come to Pinball Arcade.

Papa link - really great stuff. Thanks for that.

STTNG - what they talk about here are purely tournaments. The wizard mode can be very high scoring but it is very easy to reach as well. However. if you play the tournament where you have only one round, you know that if you don't reach that wizard you will loose to others. Therefore you might decide to time out some modes to be able to reach wizard. But you can't just time out all the modes as the wizard mode would not be worth much so you need to strategize well. None of this is the problem when you play by your self and want to beat your score. You know you have to play well so that wizard is worth the most. If you time out the modes you will just make your wizard that much smaller and will never beat your score. If I was to play this with friend, I would play who has got the highest score out of 5 or 10 games. In that case you would not even think about timing out the modes as you know you will definitely reach that wizard mode in one of these 5-10 games and therefore would want to make sure that once you are there, it will be really worth it.

Tales from the crypt - have you had chance to play this table ? what do you think about it ? On the paper it sounds good and I played a few quick games on VP however I am not sure whether multiball is not the high scorer that will kill it for the rest of the table.

 

[PET3R]

But I didn't find out about the hold bonus loophole on the internet. I figured it out for myself. I bet you saw that Pinball Fantasies rulesheet that floats around Gamefaqs and other places? Well... I wrote it.

If this is the case then thank you very much for ruining my favourite table I am just kidding. It is really a big honour to have somebody like you posting on this forum. Specially that you know very well the pinball from my childhood

 

[PET3R]

This is personal preference, but I prefer this way of doing it. I like when scoring is aligned with the progress you should be making during a game. Pinball isn't as much fun when your progress doesn't match what you have to do for scoring. We've all had experiences like Whitewater where it feels like a good game is going, getting through a bunch of rafts and whirlpools... but there isn't anything to show for it on the scoreboard and then the next game beats that with just a couple of timely jackpots.


Yes, it does. If you missed more shots but got the same result, it means you were very good at saving and controlling those missed shots. That is also skill and you earned the same progress. Which brings me back to STTNG:



You're right that STTNG always treats you well if you hit your shots... but I think it's too punishing for misses. Those outlanes and the extra angle on the slingshots leading towards them... it's a significant enough problem that STTNG isn't as fun as other games and I wouldn't put it at #1 all time.

There's more to pinball than just making shots. Controlling a loose ball is also very skill-testing. Pinball already has a built-in skill tester in keeping the ball in play. It doesn't need another by slapping a tight timer onto modes or drastic swings for passing or failing them.

You can do a lot more with flippers than just shoot. Flippers are not bats or clubs for whacking the ball. They are your hands inside the game cabinet and can do many moves. They can catch, pass, deflect, toss, bump, redirect, and lots more. Pinball skill is about all of this.

a) I would not bring WW in here. Yes you can have lot of rafts but you know if you hit jackpot x3, the whole score messes up. I think STTNG's score matches very well with your progress. The score is always very huge when you had really good game.

b) you know how it is with the missed shots. Sometimes luck can play it's role here. I had games where I would miss 50 shots and the ball would always fall back on a flipper. I had games where I missed 5 shots and the ball would immediately go into outlanes. If you are missing the shots, you are always trying to save the ball, therefore getting the hang of it. But when you have nice clean game with straight shots, it will surprise you when suddenly you miss and you have to start saving it. Would you rather watch someone playing nice game with the clean shots, or someone who is struggling to make a shot but manages to keep his ball in game ? In my opinion pinball is about accuracy in the very first place, then comes everything else.

c) I much prefer shorter games compared to the long ones. I think one of the reasons why tournament is played with the 3 balls is also to cut the time of gameplay. Otherwise the games turn into endurance mode - who can last longer. There is much more excitement when game like STTNG which is fairly a quick game, becomes quite long and you pray for every shot to be successful just to get every extra point possible. Specially when there are still quite lot of things you can do and you want to manage most of them before draining. Even with all the extra balls in STTNG, you never have the feeling that the game would last too long.

d) what makes you feel STTNG isn't as fun as the other games. To me it is most fun pinball table can offer. Every single game feels very different as you never know what will happen. When I play AFM I tend to restart very often the games as I know what my progress should look like after the first ball. If I did not manage to reach it, hit restart. In STTNG it is very difficult. You just played 2 very good modes and than messed up the third one. Do you restart ? You might play perfectly the other four + the 2 you already played well can give you very good score and wizard worth a lot. You just played 4th mode with an excellent result but again did not do as good in 5th. Restart ? And I am not even talking about draining the ball. My ball is still in game. (as long as you have ball in game in AFM you have no reason to think of restart, you might even play very poor game)
Even if you play all 7 modes perfectly it does not mean anything, because you can play very poorly your wizard mode and therefore not having a very huge score. There are just so many combinations that can happen as you have only 1 single go when it comes to modes. And we are still talking only about the first wizard. Don't forget there is the second round towards 2nd wizard which will once again shuffle all the odds. There is no difference between the 1st wizard in AFM and it's second one as it is going to feel exactly the same way. Your 2nd wizard in STTNG can sometimes have smaller shot values than 1st wizard in different round and that is what is making it the most exciting.

e) when people talk about the AFM all I always hear is - I never managed to rule the universe. I managed to rule the universe 2 times in my life. I have managed to rule the universe 2x in one game. I wonder whether I can rule it 3 times. When was the last time I ruled the universe ? It was quite a while now. Score almost feels irrelevant as all you mainly remember is how many times you ruled the universe. You might actually have a game where your score was higher without ruling the universe but it will not be as memorable because you did not rule the universe in that game. Before writing this, I have actually managed to rule the universe today. Even though it felt great, I can't even remember what was my score. And after I reached it I felt like I completed game. I was on my last ball and I would have to go again through the difficult goals like Super Jackpot and 5-way combo. I knew it was very very unlikely to do this all with one ball so I just kind of waited until I drain as I did not feel much point of playing. I wonder how long it takes until I got enough of ruling the universe and won't bother any more playing that table. I never have this feeling in STTNG. I always watch the score, and no matter what stage I reach I always want to play a little longer just to add any extra millions to make it a little higher than what it could end up with. Even if I am very far from the next wizard I still want to play any mode to the maximum to grab some points and maybe multiball to grab even more.

f)"They can catch, pass, deflect, toss, bump, redirect, and lots more." Do you feel you can't do these in STTNG. Even if you can't pass from flipper to flipper you can still pass through the ramp, which requires more skill.

g) AFM and STTNG are very different games. One concentrates on story and progress the other one on score and variety. But even if we were supposed to treat them as 2 separate tables I still feel that STTNG better accomplishes what is supposed to do compared to AFM which suffers slightly with Super Jackpot and 5-way combo goal and the fact that after 1st wizard mode you feel like you have accomplished the game. Ruling the universe is the great feeling, but I am really sure that one day I will have enough of it and I might rather try to reach bigger wizards like SPP or LOTR. Because of this reason I would not put AFM above the STTNG.

 

[jonesjb]

I had only played STTNG a few times, as I'm not a Trekkie and couldn't get into the theme. And when I did play, I couldn't really bump properly with the two gun things in the way. Nevertheless, given your recommendation (Pet3r), I gave the table the attention it deserves. And I can say it is actually a very fun game, and I think it has some very novel scoring. I like how there is a good balance of risk and reward, the better you play on the way through add into higher scores down the way (the a quick asteroid hit for $20M, the neutral zone, usage of artifacts in the final frontier, the time rift mission that adds value and time as you hit your shots). There is even a bit of a MM/AFM central target that doesn't dominate the game (making usage of the DMD and the center hole).

This is an amazing table. I'd put it above MB. The only potential downside (although it isn't really one) is that the game is heavily reliant on the final frontier to set the high score. While this may seem to be a downside, good gameplay within the missions set you up to get more bang out of your Final Frontier time. The whole game is kinda like setting up for the big battle at the end, which is kinda cool. This means that you really don't want to time out the modes (if you want to get the HUGE score). Very good game, and this is coming from someone who was originally stand-offish of the theme.

 

[PET3R]

I had only played STTNG a few times, as I'm not a Trekkie and couldn't get into the theme. And when I did play, I couldn't really bump properly with the two gun things in the way. Nevertheless, given your recommendation (Pet3r), I gave the table the attention it deserves. And I can say it is actually a very fun game, and I think it has some very novel scoring. I like how there is a good balance of risk and reward, the better you play on the way through add into higher scores down the way (the a quick asteroid hit for $20M, the neutral zone, usage of artifacts in the final frontier, the time rift mission that adds value and time as you hit your shots). There is even a bit of a MM/AFM central target that doesn't dominate the game (making usage of the DMD and the center hole).

This is an amazing table. I'd put it above MB. The only potential downside (although it isn't really one) is that the game is heavily reliant on the final frontier to set the high score. While this may seem to be a downside, good gameplay within the missions set you up to get more bang out of your Final Frontier time. The whole game is kinda like setting up for the big battle at the end, which is kinda cool. This means that you really don't want to time out the modes (if you want to get the HUGE score). Very good game, and this is coming from someone who was originally stand-offish of the theme.

I am really happy to hear that. The more I play that table the more I love it. I think it is got to do a lot with the shots. As you getting better at shots the game lasts much longer and you start enjoying the table more and more. You know the shots are not easy, so once you manage to pull off clean game it feels really rewarding.

 

[PET3R]

We roughly know what are our top 10 tables in no particular order. To make this bit easier I am going to concentrate bit more on top 5 first. Therefore slowly eliminating tables that do not belong there.

Top 5 material in no particular order
-------------------------------
STTNG - none found yet

AFM - Linear Scoring, Repetitive shot of saucer, There is not much to do after ruling the universe

MB - indication of time when stacking modes

TAF - magnets, timing out of the modes ?

CV - staying in the wizard mode after draining/ not scoring during wizard mode. Middle ramp - drainer

TZ - timing out of the modes, less interesting modes or modes that are not needed - skill shot mode, repetitive 2x clock modes, cluttered playfield

CC - importance of the bonus ?

Out of top 5
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MM - early Merlin's shot/trolls, repetitive shooting of the castle, only 3 goals - castles, ramps, trolls

SS - looping the left ramp during the wizard mode, not as meaty as other tables

RBION - 2x scoring, side features that you can easily ignore, strategy of skipping the second round and going straight for another continent scoring, same layout as TAF

WW - overboard, 5x playfield, 3x Jackpot, Vacation Jackpot (Class 6 river + 3 Locks)

RS - importance of the bonus, 10sec lock for wizard
========================================
I know I will be hated here by many for not putting MM into top 5, but:
a) Even after giving it enough chance by playing it a lot in the past week, it did not grow at me at all.
b) appart from the 3 goals (castles, trolls and ramps), there is really nothing more to it. In AFM you at least have bigger variety of goals/modes to keep you interested (saucers, ramps, spell Martian + multiball, regular mutliball = super jackpot goal, Total anihilation, strobe multiball, surprise attack, shield targets,5 way combo, super jets goal). At first I used to like in MM that you can go straight from 1 castle to another during the multiball, but AFM allows more strategies since you are not progressing straight away. I feel the trolls totally kill MM. They are not fun like targets in CC, they are difficult and usually cause a drain. With early Merlin's shot they just destroy the table. You can't even see the progress of your ramps as you don't know how many have you already completed. And you use all your multiballs towards hitting the castles as they are not worth much playing (http://www.skill-shot.com/content/medieval-madness,400). So at the end the whole MM is only about 1 target - Castle.